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John Deere 850 fuel knock and heavy black smoke out exhaust


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#1 diesel nut OFFLINE  

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Posted April 22, 2021 - 03:43 PM

Hi all,  I'm working on a John Deere 850 compact tractor with the Yanmar 3T80-J engine for a customer at work.  This started last summer after he was complaining for almost 2 years about it overheating.  It had a bad head gasket and warped head that I fixed and after it ran fine for maybe 15 hours.  

 

He brought it back complaining of no power and a solid stream of thick black smoke out of the exhaust.  When I started it there was also kind of a whistling noise from the exhaust that reminded me of the turbo in my Cummins when it's cold.  Started with the fuel filter and it was about half covered with some kind of nasty white slime and about a quarter full of water.  Changed that and still the same.  I pulled the injectors and tested them and they were questionable so I ordered 3 new ones from Hoye Tractor as it was less than having them rebuilt.  Put them in and after it got all the buildup out of the manifold and muffler it ran fine and no "whistle".  He took it home and all was good until he had about 15 more hours on it and it did it again, only this time it would barely run up to 1000 rpm and the smoke was even worse.

 

He managed to drive it to me and when I went to check it over the whistle was back and louder.  Checked the injectors and they popped and sprayed the way they should.  Checked the filter and there was some water and dirt in it this time.  Did a little checking on various sites and didn't really find anything about similar issues.  Ended up pulling the pump and sending out to have it looked over and fixed.  Finally got it back after a total rebuild cause it was completely wrecked internally, put it in along with flushing the tank, a new fuel filter, rubber lines, and fresh fuel and it fired right up and ran great.  Drove it outside to let it warm up so I could road test it and let it run at half throttle.  After about 20 minutes I went back to speed it up and take it for a drive and it ran fine until I tried to come up a hill then it was back smoke, no power, and it started knocking bad.  Slowed it down and the smoke went away some but the whistle was back.

 

Brought it in and checked it over but couldn't really see anything that would cause it.  I called the shop that rebuilt the pump and got a few suggestions from them and called one of my friends that used to work ata JD dealer and he asked around and got a few more suggestions.  Tried everything but it didn't make any difference.  Finally pulled the pump and sent it and all the injectors both old and new back to the rebuild shop.  The original injectors were junk and the new ones opened a little under pressure.  They set everything up they way it should be and said they were working together perfectly and suggested I check the governor to make sure it wasn't over-fueling the engine .  I put them all back in and went step by step with the governor according to my I&T manual and it fired right up and ran fine other than I couldn't get it to speed up above 2000 rpm for the time it took me to drive it out of the shop and around the building.  

 

Parked it to let it warm up and was moving the throttle to get to about 1750 on the tach and it did it again.  I've since brought it back in and it appears the link between the governor and the rack on the pump slipped adjustment.  Reset it and no change other than the smoke looked like it was a combination of black and white instead of solid black.  As a last ditch attempt to fix it I loosened the adjustment on the same link and moved it the other way as it was a little confusing in the book when it said to move it all the way back, so I took a chance that they meant to the off position on the pump which goes forward on the engine as opposed to the back of the engine.  Started it up and it cleaned right up and ran nice until i took it for a test drive and it started all over again.  Just not as bad as before.

 

Figured I'd ask on here before I spend anymore time on it as I'm at my wits end trying to fix it.  

 

Thanks in advance,  Stewart


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#2 4getgto ONLINE  

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Posted April 22, 2021 - 04:03 PM

Long-shot on my part.
Air intake tube is good and not obstructed in any way?.Seen them come apart internally and block things up. Air filters good.? Sometimes the element looks good but is so hard it doesn't allow air flow as it should
Just suggestions. Sometimes bite you in the butt...
Seems you covered most of all bases..
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#3 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted April 22, 2021 - 07:32 PM

I have no idea about a diesels, if this is what it is, but what about timing the pump as to when it sends fuel to the injectors. If there is a way to set timing ? In a gas engine if timing is late, it will run hot.

Noel
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#4 diesel nut OFFLINE  

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Posted April 22, 2021 - 09:24 PM

Long-shot on my part.
Air intake tube is good and not obstructed in any way?.Seen them come apart internally and block things up. Air filters good.? Sometimes the element looks good but is so hard it doesn't allow air flow as it should
Just suggestions. Sometimes bite you in the butt...
Seems you covered most of all bases..

I forgot to add that.  I have the air cleaner unhooked at the moment to rule that out.  Tried it both ways and it didn't make a difference if it was there or not.  I've also checked the valve adjustment multiple times just to be sure it's not that.

 

 

I have no idea about a diesels, if this is what it is, but what about timing the pump as to when it sends fuel to the injectors. If there is a way to set timing ? In a gas engine if timing is late, it will run hot.

Noel

Yes it's diesel.  The pump is timed by a stack of shims under where it mounts to set it away from the camshaft.  It was running fine before I did the head gasket and the original pump was rebuilt and sent back to me so the timing should be correct.  I haven't tried to check that for 2 reasons.  1-To do it the #1 delivery nozzel needs to be removed and a fitting with a small tube put in its place to do what they call a drip test to get it at just the right spot and I don't have the fitting and tube.  2-I'd need to get the ok from the rebuild shop or have them come out and do it cause taking anything off or changing any settings on it after they work on them voids the warranty


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#5 4getgto ONLINE  

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Posted April 23, 2021 - 04:24 AM

Is this whistle solid or does it pulse with engine stroke or compression.
Almost leaning towards the head gasket. Or a crack somewhere.
This sure is a head scratcher ..?

Edited by 4getgto, April 23, 2021 - 04:26 AM.

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#6 diesel nut OFFLINE  

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Posted April 23, 2021 - 11:02 AM

The whistle is a solid sound.  It does get louder when the engine is sped up no pulsing.

 

I'm going to go through and reset the governor again cause when I was rereading how to do that and check the timing I realized I missed one line on the timing and was doing everything backwards.  For some reason Yanmar numbered the engine and firing order from the back of the engine so the #1 cylinder is next to the flywheel and not the radiator like every other inline engine in a compact/farm tractor I've ever worked on  :mad2:  :wallbanging:


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#7 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted April 23, 2021 - 11:14 AM

Something that I noticed while reading your post is the mention of water and dirt in the fuel filter - both on the initial filter change and on the second filter change where everything was flushed.  This would indicate to me that the customer has a poor quality fuel supply and / or a poor understanding of the importance of clean fuel and making sure nothing foreign enters the fuel tank during a refueling operation.  One thing I learned at an early age when we got our first diesel on the farm was that cleanliness was next to Godliness when it came to diesel fuel and to shield the filler hole when adding fuel in wet or snowy conditions to try and prevent any moisture from entering into the system.  While this is probably not the reason of the problem you are having it will not be helping any - just an observation.  


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#8 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted April 23, 2021 - 03:07 PM

After thinking about it and rereading the trouble, could it be plugged exhaust some where in the system. As I was thinking about it, it reminded me of a plugged catalytic converter on a gas vehicle. Pluged up converter will do similar symptoms. No power, won’t rev up, run hot and whistle. Just a thought.


Noel
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#9 diesel nut OFFLINE  

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Posted April 24, 2021 - 09:37 PM

Something that I noticed while reading your post is the mention of water and dirt in the fuel filter - both on the initial filter change and on the second filter change where everything was flushed.  This would indicate to me that the customer has a poor quality fuel supply and / or a poor understanding of the importance of clean fuel and making sure nothing foreign enters the fuel tank during a refueling operation.  One thing I learned at an early age when we got our first diesel on the farm was that cleanliness was next to Godliness when it came to diesel fuel and to shield the filler hole when adding fuel in wet or snowy conditions to try and prevent any moisture from entering into the system.  While this is probably not the reason of the problem you are having it will not be helping any - just an observation.  

I think the crap in the tank came from the person he got the tractor from cause he's right up there on keeping things clean and the water is a loosing battle around here to keep it out of the gas and diesel depending on where you get it.  I use a Mr. Funnel filter funnel when I put gas/diesel into anything and a lot of the time there's a few drops of water in the bottom

 

 

After thinking about it and rereading the trouble, could it be plugged exhaust some where in the system. As I was thinking about it, it reminded me of a plugged catalytic converter on a gas vehicle. Pluged up converter will do similar symptoms. No power, won’t rev up, run hot and whistle. Just a thought.


Noel

I'll probably see about pulling the muffler and manifolds off Monday and see if there's anything in there or if it makes a difference.  The thing that's throwing me on it is heavy black smoke is from unburned diesel and the knock is from too much going into the cylinders and I have no idea what could be causing that whistle in a non turbo engine.  

 

I'm at the point now where I can't in good conscious charge him for the close to 16 hours beyond the time it's taken to pull the pump and injectors twice each that I've spent trying to figure this problem out.  I'm about ready to tell him I can't figure it out and he needs to take it to a John Deere dealer where they have all the model specific service books and tools


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#10 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted April 25, 2021 - 05:45 AM

Well. Hopefully you find the trouble. Post whatever you find. I’m interested. I have a John Deere 140h3 in my shop and have been working on it on and off for over a year to find my trouble. But it’s just my own tractor. But it’s frustrating and confusing when you can’t find the problem.

Noel
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#11 gopher OFFLINE  

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Posted April 25, 2021 - 09:35 PM

If blowing black you have intake air restriction some where.


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#12 WNYTractorTinkerer OFFLINE  

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Posted April 26, 2021 - 07:24 AM

Muffler plugged?  How was the oil?  Did you change it?  A compression check will tell what shape the rings are..  How di the cylinders look when you had the head off?  Check the cam / valve movement to assure the valves are opening to spec..  Just a few thoughts on a Monday morning..  If you don't have the specs I have the tech manual for that machine..


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#13 WNYTractorTinkerer OFFLINE  

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Posted April 26, 2021 - 07:26 AM

Something that I noticed while reading your post is the mention of water and dirt in the fuel filter - both on the initial filter change and on the second filter change where everything was flushed.  This would indicate to me that the customer has a poor quality fuel supply and / or a poor understanding of the importance of clean fuel and making sure nothing foreign enters the fuel tank during a refueling operation.  One thing I learned at an early age when we got our first diesel on the farm was that cleanliness was next to Godliness when it came to diesel fuel and to shield the filler hole when adding fuel in wet or snowy conditions to try and prevent any moisture from entering into the system.  While this is probably not the reason of the problem you are having it will not be helping any - just an observation.  

 

Keeping the tank FULL in the winter is also a must as there won't be as much AIR for the moisture to condense out of..  JMO



#14 Cvans OFFLINE  

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Posted April 26, 2021 - 08:55 AM

I don't have any answers that haven't been mentioned but you have my sympathy. Those kinds of problems can drive a guy nuts. Hope you can get it resolved quickly or is it too late for that? Good luck!


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#15 diesel nut OFFLINE  

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Posted April 26, 2021 - 09:09 PM

I spent some time this afternoon working on it.  I had the air filter unhooked already to see if it would help but made no difference, so I pulled the intake manifold completely off just to check and make sure there was nothing in it.  The intake was free of any obstruction but was covered in a layer of black soot.  

 

Tried cranking it over to see if maybe the valves weren't seating properly and pushing air back out but didn't feel any coming out.  Pulled the muffler and manifold as 1 piece as the nuts that hold the muffler on are rusted tight and didn't want to break them off.  As I was taking the last bolt out the manifold moved far enough away from the head and white smoke started to come out where it bolts on.  The smoke was left over from cranking it to check the intake.  

 

Got it running after that and other than the occasional burst of fire out of the ports it ran perfect with no smoke, knocking, or whistling, and the tach showed it was running up over 2000 rpm for the first time since it came back for the pump rebuild.  Decided to put the air hose down the outlet side of the muffler and what came out of the manifold looked like someone squeezed a bottle of baby powder.  Pretty sure the muffler is plugged with rust and soot from age and the bad pump/injectors.

 

Going to see about getting the muffler unbolted tomorrow and stick a bore scope in it to see how bad it might be.  Then put the manifold back on so I can put it outside and let it run to double check that that is the problem


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