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Snow Build Up Around Gear Case On Tubeframe Round Back Snow Caster


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#31 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 20, 2021 - 12:03 PM

Great advise on the pin removal ! I too made the blunder of driving a pin too far through the gear and then couldn't rotate it back around to get the pin out. It was my extreme good fortune that the box I was learning on was pretty much a junk one anyway, very rusty inside. I was just tearing it apart for whatever I could possibly salvage. I ended up forcing the shaft back around which bound the end of the pin against the inside of the case, finally broke the pin off near the surface of the gears hub. Made quite a gouge in the gearcase. Wasn't a big deal as the case was beat up on both snouts where the seals go and had a crack in it too. All the boxes I have recently taken apart I have done the "grind the end off" method till the pin is short enough to clear the hole in the shaft. This of course necessitates the complete disassembly of the box to clean out all the metal fragments from the grinding. I'm sure you've had a similar experience. I also had a devil of a time trying to pull the pin with the vise-grip approach. Ended up using end nipper type pliers to pull the pin out. I hadn't thought of putting something inside of the pin so it wouldn't collapse. That is so simple, why didn't I think of it? I also had a thought of drilling a hole in the case to allow the pin to be driven out of the gear and out through the side of the case to remove it. Would have to tap and put a plug in the hole to seal it. I wonder if that would weaken the case enough to cause an issue? I always just figure that the teardown of a box means I need 2 new pins. I have always used the regular duty split pins that I find at the local hardware. I believe that a couple of times the pins I used extended past the surface of the gears hubs by maybe a 1/16" on either side. I remember grinding a pin off a bit because it was longer than needed to fit the gear. The hardware was out of the one I wanted so had to buy the next longer size. I typically grind an extra bit of a bevel on the end that is going in first just to help get it started in the hole too. I thought that it might help align the holes of the shaft and hub if I was off just a smidge too. I'm not sure if having the split in the pin aligned in any particular position makes any difference or not. If you made the split aligned with the length of the shaft then it would be be solid against both surfaces of the gears hub in relation to its rotation. And vice-versa. If that makes any sense? Not exactly sure how to explain it. Probably makes no difference. I also wonder if a smaller diameter split pin could be driven through the one that keeps breaking. Or possibly a piece of some softer metal , a finish nail, a piece of heavy wire? The second pin would prevent the larger pin from distorting from the torque being applied on it. Would have to slather it up with Loc-Tite to make sure it didn't come loose. Maybe a bit of solder on either end?  This goes back to the thought of inserting something inside the pin so it won't distort so you can grip it with the vise-grips. Just thoughts.

I wonder if a piece of 1/8" rod would fit inside the roll pin when it is in the gear and shaft.  If it would then might be able to put a hook or small flat washer just under 1/4" diameter on a piece about 1-5/8" long and put a thread on the end.  Then could insert the piece with the head flush with the roll pin and rotate the shaft half a turn so the thread was now sticking out.  Then thread another section of rod on that is threaded - maybe 1/4" threaded rod and then make a U to form a puller to pull the pin out.  Not sure how much force would be required on a slow steady pull and whether a piece of 1/8" would have enough strength??  May have to investigate that  idea sometime.

 

I tried putting another roll pin inside a 1/4" pin several years ago when the first roll pin broke on my snow caster.  Could not get the double pin started into the gear so I decided to insert the 1/4" pin into the gear and shaft and then try driving in the smaller pin.  Bad idea as the 1/4" pin started to drive out the inside and things got really jammed up as I had a pin sticking out both ways and could not remove the smaller one or rotate the shaft to drive the bigger one back.  I ended up drilling a hole in the gear case so I could drive the 1/4" pin out from the gear case side and then tapped and threaded the hole for a bolt - can't remember if I used 5/16" or 1/4" UNC but seems to have held and doesn't leak and the case is still intact.  Think I loctited the bolt in at the time.  I will try and remeber to take a picture of it when I upgrade the gears and shaft in the spring / summer.

 

I am thinking that when I install the new shaft and gears and use a spirol style pin that will probably fix the roll pin breaking problem.  If I can come up with a way of pulling the pin I may use a 1-1/2 long one on the smaller gear so it has support at both sides of the gear from the full hub thickness.  I think the gear case design was good at the start of the Tube Frame production run but I imagine from the postings of other members once the roll pin broke it became a weak link for some owners and dealers probably got tired of listening to some of the customers complain that the pin kept breaking on them - just a guess.  With the HP increases and larger attachment sizes it appear that Bolens went to a a cast iron gear case with ball bearings and keyed gears on the Medium Frame and large Frame series.  Not sure if one could be adapted to a Tube Frame attachment as I think that most of the cast iron gear cases have a 1:1 ratio and the Large Frame PTO's run about half the speed of a Tube Frame.   


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#32 Dave in NY ONLINE  

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Posted February 20, 2021 - 06:43 PM

The pin inside a pin was just a thought, and you already had thought of it. LOL  I would surmise that your new parts assembled with a spirol pin should cure the issue for you. Meanwhile I like your idea of adding a set screw to the gears hub. Are you going to drill fresh holes for a pin in the old gear 90 degrees from the old holes and see if that helps? How about tapping one of the old worn holes for the set screw? I suspect you will just install the new parts and try to put all this behind you. Taking the blower apart every few hours has got to be getting old!  How about slipping a machine screw/bolt through the pin and use a washer or collar of some sort under the nut to pull the pin back through the hub? Might be easier than trying to make one from a piece of rod? Just a thought, I typically try to find an easy way to do something. 


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#33 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 21, 2021 - 11:05 AM

The pin inside a pin was just a thought, and you already had thought of it. LOL  I would surmise that your new parts assembled with a spirol pin should cure the issue for you. Meanwhile I like your idea of adding a set screw to the gears hub. Are you going to drill fresh holes for a pin in the old gear 90 degrees from the old holes and see if that helps? How about tapping one of the old worn holes for the set screw? I suspect you will just install the new parts and try to put all this behind you. Taking the blower apart every few hours has got to be getting old!  How about slipping a machine screw/bolt through the pin and use a washer or collar of some sort under the nut to pull the pin back through the hub? Might be easier than trying to make one from a piece of rod? Just a thought, I typically try to find an easy way to do something. 

I am going to install the newer style gears and new shaft and am hoping that will cure the pin breaking problem.  May repair the holes in the old pin and also sleeve the old gear to have them as a back up plan.  I am assuming the gear in the snow caster is about the same hardness as the one from my old mower deck and since it can be drilled and tapped I should be able to turn the inside bore of the gear out to 1" and then press a short piece of 1" cold rolled inside it and weld it to the hub at each end.  Then it can be bored back to 3/4" inside and the two roll pin holes re-drilled in the new insert to provide a nice undamaged inner surface for the roll pin to sit against.  Good suggestion on the machine screw - I had a 6-32 x 1-1/4" machine screw and tried it inside a split pin installed in the old gear this morning and it will fit through the pin and the head will just slip through the 1/4" pin hole.  Do not have a longer screw so I may pick up a 2" long screw sometime and try pulling a pin out with it.  Don't think a single 6-32 nut would grab enough threads so would probably have to thread a piece of round stock about 3/8" or 1/2" long to give lots of thread engagement.  Then it could be welded or threaded on to a piece of 1/4" or 3/8" threaded rod and inserted through a deep socket to try and pull the roll pin out.  Not sure if a 6-32 screw would be strong enough but might be an interesting experiment.  Would want to use a nut on the threaded rod to try and do the pulling so the piece threaded onto the end of the machine screw had full thread engagement rather than trying to use the smaller and softer 6-32 thread to try and do the pulling action.  Tried the 6-32 screw with a spirol style pin and it will not fit inside the pin so it would not work with that style of pin so going to have to come up with a different idea to try and remove one of them. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1 6-32 x 1 1- 4 Inch long Machine Screw.jpg
  • 2 Screw Fits Inside Compressed Split Pin.jpg
  • 3 Head Will Fit Inside Roll Pin Hole.jpg

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#34 Dave in NY ONLINE  

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Posted February 21, 2021 - 03:06 PM

I wonder if a hardened, fine thread machine screw is available? Something like that might stand up to the stress of pulling the pin? Again just thoughts. Maybe it would be easier to just fab something yourself.
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#35 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 21, 2021 - 06:09 PM

Something that I have found strange is that there does not appear to have ever been any service information published by Bolens on the gear case style that was used on the snow caster and mower decks for the Tube Frame tractor series - at least if there was I have never ran across any.  Just finished checking the Bolens Service Seminar books that I have copies of (earliest I have covers 1977).  In most of the manuals there is information on the cast iron gear cases (used on the later models and Large Frame units) and also information on the mower deck spindles but the round gear case information is conspicuous by its absence. The parts manuals show the gear case broken down by part illustration and part # (as well as a complete assembly in most instances) so they were obviously intended to be repaired if required.  I am thinking that the gear cases seldom gave a problem unless they were ran low on gear lube or something catastrophic happened and a big rock or something similar got jammed in such a way that a shear pin (in the case of a snow caster) or a belt did not slip and something inside the gear case took the hit.  As these attachments aged (in the 1990's the average tube frame attachment age would probably be 25+ years) and changed hands they would develop wear in bearings and other moving parts and perhaps that is when things like the roll pin breaking on the small shaft started to become noticeable.  Most owners would probably not replace all the bearings, gears and shafts in an attachment and probably tolerate a pin breaking once in a while or pick up another attachment rather than spend big dollars to rebuild a gear case.  Since I use my attachments quite a bit (6 hours to cut all the lawn once) and usually around 3 hours for snow removal (800 ft laneway) I am probably an exception as far as the number of times the pin breaks per season.  Something I have noticed is that since I installed the new gear case (July 2018 - 2-1/2 seasons) with new shafts, bearings, spirol gears and seals I have not had to replace a pin in the gear case - hopefully this trend continues. Now that I have become more knowledgeable on what to look for I have learned that there is no point in just replacing the gears and bearings if the shaft holes have damage at the outer edges where the pin goes through as I did back in the early 2000's with my mower deck gear case.

 

Still going to try and think of a way to be able to remove the spirol style roll pin without having to grind the pin - wonder how Bolens dealers did it back in the day.  Perhaps they never had to as the gear cases may never have given any problems at the dealer level unless they did not drive in which case the smaller pin was probably the reason why and already broken so the shaft would just slide out.  Again just thinking out loud - hope it does not sound like aimless ramblings.        


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#36 Dave in NY ONLINE  

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Posted February 21, 2021 - 09:39 PM

No, not taken as ramblings! Just shows that you have put some thought into the how and why of things. I do that quite often myself. Had I known several years back,that there would be questions such as these, I could have asked a former local Bolens dealer/service man (second generation,his Dad started the business) about many of the things that are discussed here. He was a friend of my Dad and also used to work where I do. Sadly he is gone from the earth now! Would have been a wealth of knowledge if I had asked. But back then I hadn't yet become interested in Bolens things. Possibly like you suggest they didn't have many gearboxes to fix? Maybe just charged the owner for a new complete assembly when/if there was trouble? Depending of course on the mechanical skill of the service man?
Dunno, maybe things like this will remain a mystery!
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#37 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 24, 2021 - 02:07 PM

Started on making a tool that may or may not work to remove the roll pin on the smaller gear in the gear case.  Was looking at the micrometer the other day and wondered if there would be enough room to slip a piece of 1/4" flat steel between the gear and the case with an anvil pin on the end to pull the pin out so I am going to give it a try.  Not much room in the gear case for a thicker piece of steel so I may not be able to create a strong enough frame to pull the pin without the frame bending so not sure how this will turn out. 

 

Started by making a cardboard template to try and get an idea of how much room there is between the gear and the inner part of the gear case and what sort of shape would be required.  Cut a piece of 1/4" round stock and a piece of 1/4" x 3/8" flat steel off of a piece of 1-1/2" wide flat bar I had and welded them together to form a sharp "L" shape.  This gave me the shape similar to my template and then added a piece 1/4" x 3/8" to start to make the straight section of the frame.  Things looked promising so I added one more length to extend the straight part of the frame.  The pin on the end will hopefully allow me to pull the roll pin so it extends about 3/8" past the edge of the gear hub.  I am hoping this will still allow the gear to rotate inside the case and then I can slip a short piece of round stock (about 3/8" to 1/2" long??) into the far side of the pin hole and then rotate the gear back around and after inserting the puller pin back into the gear hole recess pull the pin enough that it will allow the shaft to slide out of the gear.  The tool can then be removed and the short piece of round can float inside the 3/4" shaft hole and be removed once the shaft is slid out of the gear.

 

As I say this may or may not work but nothing ventured - nothing gained.  

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1 Cardboard Template With Drawing Of Shape.jpg
  • 2 Quarter Inch Flat Piece And Round Stock Cut.jpg
  • 3 Pieces Will Be Welded Together On An Angle.jpg
  • 4 Test Fit On Gear.jpg
  • 5 Pieces Welded To Form Sharp L.jpg
  • 6 Pieces Welded To Form Sharp L.jpg
  • 7 Test Fit On Template.jpg
  • 8 Piece Of Three Eights Welded To Form J.jpg
  • 9 Maximum Thicness To Get Around Gear In Case WIll Be Quarter Inch.jpg
  • 10 Added Another Piece Of Three Eights To Extend J.jpg
  • 11 Added Another Piece Of Three Eights To Extend J.jpg

Edited by 29 Chev, February 24, 2021 - 02:09 PM.

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#38 Austen OFFLINE  

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Posted February 24, 2021 - 02:32 PM

Nice job at making the roll pin removal tool. Sometimes they are very hard to remove.


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#39 takefive247 ONLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2021 - 09:39 AM

Thanks for the lead on the chute seal. Not sure if photos will help. Sort of self explanatory once you see it. My two blowers I’m working on, the seal is hard and dried out. Not doing much if anything. The new one is well lubricated and I assume needs to be kept so. I think your sleeve may not allow the seal to sit between the chute and plate. That.s left to be seen.

 

BillDSC_0772.JPG DSC_0773.JPG DSC_0774.JPG


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#40 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2021 - 01:51 PM

Thanks for sharing the pictures.  Just curious if the seal has grooves in it so that it fits around either the chute or the plate that the chute fits through or does it just float on top of the plate? 



#41 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2021 - 02:01 PM

Added a piece 5/8" wide a 1/4" at the end of the frame and then did a few test fits inside my old gear case.  Things are snug and have to keep the pin next to the gear hub but the frame will slip in the gear case and drop down on the back side of the gear and the pin will then slip into the hole - have to kind of feel it slip into the hole as cannot see much.  Things looked promising so made a sleeve out of a 1-1/4" long ax 3/4" round stock and drilled a 17/64" hole though it so that the roll pin would slip inside it.  Laid the frame and sleeve beside the gear so you can sort of visualize how it will work hopefully. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1 Five Eights Piece Added To Form 90° At End Of Frame.jpg
  • 2 Frame Fits Inside Gear Case.jpg
  • 3 Starting To Insert Frame.jpg
  • 4 Just Slips Between Edge Of Gear And Case.jpg
  • 5 Pin Starting To Slip Down Back Side Of Gear Hub.jpg
  • 6 Frame Is Close Fit.jpg
  • 7 Frame Set Down Over Gear Hub.jpg
  • 8 Spacer Sleeve Inch And Quarter Long x Three Quarter Round.jpg
  • 9 Spacer Has Hole That Roll Pin Will Slip Into.jpg
  • 10 How The Puller Will Remove Pin I Hope.jpg

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#42 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2021 - 02:27 PM

Used the straight edge to carry the center line from the pin through to the other end of the frame and then set a 3/8" nut on the frame end to figure out where to cut the end part of the frame.  Clamped two nuts along with a pieces of 3/8" threaded rod in position so that the threaded rod aligned with the pin at the other end.  Tacked the two nuts in place, then removed the threaded rod and finished welding the two nuts in place.  Once things cooled I ran a tap through the two nuts and cut a piece of 3/8" threaded rod that would be long enough to bottom against the pin with a nut welded onto the other end.  Before I welded the nut on I turned the one end of the threaded rod down so it would just fit inside the hole in the spacer.  I also cut a short piece of 1/4" round that will work as an insert to help bring the roll pin far enough to clear the shaft - started off with it about 1/2" long but shortened it so it is approximately .400" long.  This seemed to be the length that would insure the roll pin disengaged from the shaft but would still allow a slight recess once it was inserted into the hole after the roll pin was pulled initially with just the puller.  As you can see by picture # 6 the puller will only move the roll pin in the gear about half way across the width of the shaft before the puller bottoms on the gear hub. 

 

Once I had the pieces that comprise the tool made I decided to  give it a test run with the shaft out of the gear case.  Brought the roll pin out so it extended about 3/8" past the hub which I think is about the maximum it can stick out and still allow the shaft to still rotate inside the gear case - this would simulate either pulling the pin with just the puller or using a pin punch to start the pin out of the gear.  Then I set the insert in the hole on what would be the back side of the gear, slid the sleeve over the exposed roll pin and then positioned the frame part of the tool in position.  Started tightening the screw with a wrench and to my surprise the puller frame did not bend and the roll pin began to be pulled out of the shaft and gear.  Once the puller had bottomed against the hub I removed it and the sleeve to expose the majority of the roll pin sticking out of the gear.  The shaft was still locked with the gear so I used a pick and pushed the insert back in a little bit and the gear then turned freely on the shaft and I was able to slide the shaft out of the gear.  The insert was sitting in the pin hole of the shaft and I could then remove it. The insert actually lets the roll pin be moved a little bit more than is necessary but figured that it was better to have it move a little bit too far than not far enough. This was easy enough to do out where I could see the hole in the gear and set the insert into the hole - the real test will be to see if I can do it with the shaft and gear inside the gear case where you have to position the puller pin into the hole by feel. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1 Carrying Center Line Of Pin To Other End Of Frame.jpg
  • 2 Figuring Out Where To Cut For Nut.jpg
  • 3 Three Eights Threaded Rod Will Be Used For Screw.jpg
  • 4 Nuts Welded And Screw In Place With End Of Screw Turned Down.jpg
  • 5 Screw Slips Into End Of Sleeve.jpg
  • 6 Maximum Pin Would Move With Puller Only.jpg
  • 7 Insert Cut From Quarter Inch Round.jpg
  • 8 Insert Set In Pin Hole.jpg
  • 9 Pin Sticks Out Approximately Three Eights Inch.jpg
  • 10 Ready To Try Pulling Pin Rest Of Way.jpg
  • 11 Pin Pulled Until Puller Bottomed.jpg
  • 12 Pin In Gear Has Moved Enough To Clear Shaft.jpg
  • 13 Insert Sitting In Pin Hole In Shaft.jpg
  • 14 Pin Just Past Inner Edge Of Hub.jpg
  • 15 Length Of Insert Is Approximatly .400 Inches.jpg

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#43 takefive247 ONLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2021 - 06:05 PM

Hi, The Seal doesn't have a groove but looks like it should have. It has a flat thin edge that looks like it fits between the chute and the edge of the hole in the mounting plate.

 

Bill


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#44 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2021 - 11:14 AM

Tried the tool out with a 1-1/4" spiral style roll pin engaging the gear to the shaft using my old gear case and it worked well the first time - will walk you through the steps.  The first picture shows the roll pin driven out approximately .340" with a 1/4" pin punch.  At this point the roll pin does not prevent the shaft from rotating in the gear case as the pin does not extend enough to bind against the side off the case.  The shaft is rotated and the insert is placed inside the pin hole in the gear (pictures 3 and 4) and then the shaft is rotated half a turn and the tool is installed as shown in pictures 5 and 6.  This is a tricky step as the insert does not go in very far inside the roll pin hole to create a deep recess that is easy to feel so that the pin on the tool drops into it and to extend the roll pin any further out of the gear prevents being able to rotate the shaft so that the insert can be easily set in place.  With the tool in place the screw is then tightened to bring the roll pin out of the gear enough to clear the shaft (pictures 7 and 8).  The tool can then be removed as well as the spacer that is over the roll pin (pictures 9 and 10).  The insert may have to be pushed back a little bit with a pick or wire through the roll pin so it is not holding the shaft to the gear and once that is done the shaft can be slid out of the gear with the insert sitting in the shaft hole and then the insert can be removed (pictures 11 and 12). This allows the gear to be removed from the gear case with the roll pin still engaged and reusable if desired (picture 13).  

 

I tried the process again a second time and the frame of the tool ended up bending in the center - I think it was because when I put the insert into the hole the end of the insert was not recessed enough and I thought I had the pin of the tool in the hole but it was actually off a little bit and got hung up on the edge of the pin hole and when I started to tighten the screw the frame was not up the the task.  Got the frame straightened back up but the pin on the end still has a tiny bend and is no longer in straight alignment with the screw.  Will have to see if I can strengthen the frame to make it stronger as the tool does show promise of working consistently if I can do that. I am also going to try and think of a relatively easy way to install the insert in the pin hole without having to rotate the shaft as if I can do that then the roll pin can be pulled out more with just the tool initially allowing for a deeper recess with the insert installed to insure that the pin on the tool is definitely engaged in the hole so there is less chance of bending the frame or the pin on the tool because of unnecessary stress on things the way there was when the tool bent. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1 Roll Pin Still Allows Shaft To Rotate.jpg
  • 2 Roll Pin Extends Approimately .340 Inches.jpg
  • 3 Cavity In Hole That Inser Can Fit Into.jpg
  • 4 Insert Set In Pin Hole Is Almost Flush.jpg
  • 5 Tool Set Into Indent Area On Back Side Of Gear.jpg
  • 6 Tool Set Into Indent Area On Back Side Of Gear.jpg
  • 7 Screw Tightended A Bit To Start Pulling Roll Pin.jpg
  • 8 Roll Pin Pulled Till Tool Bottoms Against Gear.jpg
  • 9 Tool Frame Removed.jpg
  • 10 Tool Removed And Roll Pin Pulled.jpg
  • 11 Shaft Slides Out With Insert Inside Pin Hole In Shaft.jpg
  • 12 Insert Removed From Shaft.jpg
  • 13 Gear Removed From Case.jpg

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#45 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted February 27, 2021 - 10:50 AM

Did some thinking and modifying to the tool and how it will work to get more consistent results without worrying that the pin on the tool is not engaged in the roll pin hole on the back side of the gear which could stress the tool frame.  Took a piece of 1/8" x 1/2" flat steel and tacked it onto the edge of the frame.  This made it so the tool would not clear the gear inside the case so I sanded the upper edge to make the added piece of steel 3/8" wide.  Helped some but the tool would still not fit in past the gear so I broke the tack welds and placed the piece of flat steel on about a 25° angle in relation to the frame.  This allowed the tool to slip in and down the back side of the gear and into the pin hole so I ran a bead of weld along the one side of the frame and built up the opposite side with a few passes of weld to create what I will describe as a bent / curved frame and in the process increased the frame from being 3/8" thick to about 5/8" thick.  I also added a few beads of weld at the pin end to build it up which gave the frame some added strength and better support for the pin.  After the welds had cooled I used the sander to smooth them out and verified the tool would still fit inside ok which it did.  One other thing I did was drilled a 3/32" hole in the insert so that I can slip it onto a piece of mechanics wire easily. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1 Piece Of One EIghth x Half Inch Flat Steel Tacked To Frame.jpg
  • 2 Piece Of One EIghth x Half Inch Flat Steel Tacked To Frame.jpg
  • 3 Piece Narrowed To Three Eighths And Retacked At 25° Angle.jpg
  • 4 Piece Narrowed To Three Eighths And Retacked At 25° Angle.jpg
  • 5 End Rounded And Checking Width.jpg
  • 6 Insert Drilled So Piece Of Mechanics Wire Can Pass Through It.jpg
  • 7 Flat Piece Welded To Strengthen Frame.jpg
  • 8 Flat Piece Welded To Strengthen Frame.jpg
  • 9 Flat Piece Welded To Strengthen Frame.jpg
  • 10 Pin End Beefed Up With Weld.jpg
  • 11 Pin End Beefed Up With Weld.jpg
  • 12 Pin End Beefed Up With Weld.jpg
  • 13 Frame Now About Five Eights Wide.jpg

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