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GT 19 PTO switch wiring causing not starting

wiring electrical pto ignition

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#1 Fischnuts OFFLINE  

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Posted October 25, 2018 - 11:02 AM

New to the forum here. But you guys seem to have a vast amount of knowledge so I will ask the question

 

My GT19 has had electrical issues since I picked it up in '95. Most of them I've been able to deal with until this latest one popped up. I had to tear down the tractor to repair the PS hydraulic lines. When I put everything back together it would not turn over. I only got a clicking noise from the rear PTO. I thought that it may have been a bad ignition switch since I had problems with that before. Replaced the switch and still have the same issue. Since the PTO switch was clicking I pulled the front and rear PTO switches to the ON position. With the Front PTO switch in the ON position the engine turns over. 

 

 Any one have a quick diagnosis before I start tracing every wire with the electrical diagram?



#2 Hector_Sosa OFFLINE  

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Posted October 25, 2018 - 03:18 PM

I don't know how your electrical compares to my GT14, but I chased quite a bit of silliness in the wiring before it started to behave, so I get where you're coming from.  Did you tear apart any of the wiring when you fixed the steering, or is this more likely a "bumped or pinched" something?  I know with the relays and whatnot grounds are critical - is it possible you disconnected a ground and forgot to hook it back up?  One more thing - is yours a 931026 or 029?  Manual says their wiring is slightly different, so I'm curious which one you're working with.


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#3 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

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Posted October 26, 2018 - 11:01 PM

yup both of my GT19s had electrical issues, the 2nd one was aggravated further by PO mods, as was my S16H... all working well "now" and won't be giving me those kinds of fits any longer. also the reason why the PO's gave up on all 3 of them, all came from different people,  and 2 of them came from over 100 miles away..... in different directions from each other. all rewired from scratch, by me,  including all new wiring, soldered and heat shrunk terminals and all new switches for ignition, lights and PTO operation on each machine. and though "just like" OEM Ariens, none of my electrical components are OEM Ariens any longer. 

Heavy duty Cole Hersee starter solenoids, (better than OEM Ariens) for instance. 

and got my INDAK switches (identical to what Ariens used, and sourced for these machines)  from various sellers on Ebay, just made sure to get switches with the same terminal layout....  exact same switches were used by many OEM's over the years and a redundant ground cable, from mounting foot on engine, straight to battery on all. sometimes just grounding the frame to battery,  and bolting the engine to frame, isn't enough ground for the system. 


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#4 shorty OFFLINE  

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Posted October 27, 2018 - 05:34 AM

It sure sounds like wires got switched to me. With the engine turning over while pto switch engaged. As in, safety circuit wires and power supply are on the wrong side of the switch.
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#5 Fischnuts OFFLINE  

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Posted October 28, 2018 - 01:28 PM

To Hector, I have an 029. To get at the power steering I had to pull out the entire battery tray and move the entire dash and console back out of the way. So getting something disconnected or pinched is a definite possibility. I'm pretty sure I reconnected everything as it was when I took it apart. This project ran out over several months so it took awhile to remember how everything was assembled.

I'm pretty sure all the grounds are good. As I've said there have been electrical issue for years. One of the first things I did years ago was add an extra ground cable. For several years I've had to disconnect the battery every time I shut it down because it would be dead if the tractor sat for a day. By disconnecting the battery I could restart it after a month or more of not using it.
It sounds like you guys are telling me I will have to do what I've been avoiding for years and rewire the whole machine. I've never like doing wiring so I've tried to get along with out doing a complete rewire. I appreciate that you have all the manuals on this site. When I bought the unit used in '95 it didn't come with any. Try finding one of those before the Internet. All the relays kind of scared me.
I've never taken the electric PTO clutches out. Reading on some other strings there was some talk of setting the proper clearance. Can these unit cause a short in the system?

#6 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

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Posted October 28, 2018 - 04:58 PM

I have both an 026 and an 029.
026 is series 1 engine 029 is series 2. 029 has p/s where o26 don't. The 026 was worse buggered up by PO than the 029 was, but some of same electrical headaches between them. Same solution applied to both. The 029 would start and run when it wanted to, the 026 wouldn't even try to run. Now both run when I want them to.
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#7 runagun OFFLINE  

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Posted October 29, 2018 - 02:28 AM

On the drain issue. Is you seat switched bypassed?  Thats the Number one issue on drains.   No one is telling you to rewire.  But finding the cause of your issue. Ariens put redundant safeties on these and made things more complicated then needed to be.  Some like Dodge are very capable to rewire. I myself am not.  From experience PTO Switches give out and cause problems. But sadly the switches are $40+ each.  So having spares isn't too economical.  And they wont start when not in place.    I venture the switches are bad.  it could be one or two.  I believe the service manual will tell you how to test them.  You can download them by searching ariens manual type in your model and serial.  and select all the files you want to download.   Link is below

http://apache.ariens...UM&site=ARIENSS

 

To Hector, I have an 029. To get at the power steering I had to pull out the entire battery tray and move the entire dash and console back out of the way. So getting something disconnected or pinched is a definite possibility. I'm pretty sure I reconnected everything as it was when I took it apart. This project ran out over several months so it took awhile to remember how everything was assembled.

I'm pretty sure all the grounds are good. As I've said there have been electrical issue for years. One of the first things I did years ago was add an extra ground cable. For several years I've had to disconnect the battery every time I shut it down because it would be dead if the tractor sat for a day. By disconnecting the battery I could restart it after a month or more of not using it.
It sounds like you guys are telling me I will have to do what I've been avoiding for years and rewire the whole machine. I've never like doing wiring so I've tried to get along with out doing a complete rewire. I appreciate that you have all the manuals on this site. When I bought the unit used in '95 it didn't come with any. Try finding one of those before the Internet. All the relays kind of scared me.
I've never taken the electric PTO clutches out. Reading on some other strings there was some talk of setting the proper clearance. Can these unit cause a short in the system?


Edited by runagun, October 29, 2018 - 02:44 AM.

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#8 Fischnuts OFFLINE  

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Posted October 29, 2018 - 08:50 AM

Runagun, Yes the seat switch has been by-passed.  Do you recommend replacing and reconnecting the seat switch?

 

The PTO switches were both replaced since I've owned it. I had problems with those before and a Stealership changed them out. Not saying they haven't gone bad again. I will look up how to test them and try to rule that out as a cause.



#9 runagun OFFLINE  

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Posted October 29, 2018 - 02:07 PM

The seat switch when bypassed keeps continuity going. Normally when you shut the tractor off and get off the seat, a normal working switch breaks continuity. (tells the time delay to kill power, hence no drain)  When you bypass the switch there's nothing telling the system quit using juice.   Im not sure why Ariens wired it that way.  A way to test a working seat switch is Shut the tractor off while lights are on and stay seated. Lights should be on, When you get off the seat the lights will go off.    The Grand Sierra Series fixed the drain issue when seat got bypassed.    

    

On the seat switch-I personally would replace and connect it.  But, If you're ok with disconnecting it- then keep it as it is.  Your hour meter, if you have one must ring up some crazy hours.

 

So when the PTO(s) switches were replaced did it have any issues afterwards?     

 

I've also had troubles with neutral safety switches, Relays. I once Bought a tractor from a guy who decided to rewire the whole tractor cause a relay was bad and he couldn't pinpoint it. A little to extreme measure to do and what he left behind was a mess.   Also check the diode that goes into the ignition switch plug. 

 

Pto clutches shouldn't keep tractors from running unless the bearings are bad.  I dont think it keeps the GT series from running if the clutch is unplugged.  I know it doesn't with the Grand Sierra. But not 100% sure about the GT.

 

Runagun, Yes the seat switch has been by-passed.  Do you recommend replacing and reconnecting the seat switch?

 

The PTO switches were both replaced since I've owned it. I had problems with those before and a Stealership changed them out. Not saying they haven't gone bad again. I will look up how to test them and try to rule that out as a cause.


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#10 Fischnuts OFFLINE  

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Posted October 30, 2018 - 08:59 AM

Things are starting to make some sense. Since I bought this machine the hour meter has spun like a top. Now I know why. I will buy a new switch and get that installed as long as I'm working on this.

 I am trying to get all the safety switches working on my equipment. My son is getting to the age that he can be using this stuff and I don't want to take any unnecessary chances. My older nephew had a close call this summer when his wife backed over him with their Toro  that has a front mount mower. If the seat switch had not shut the machine off when she jumped up, the running mower deck could have tore him up much worse. They were both glad it had been him and not one of their young sons that got caught. 


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#11 runagun OFFLINE  

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Posted October 30, 2018 - 05:25 PM

That is the main reason why I don't remove any of the safety switches.    

 

There bottom link on my signature is a great resource for Ariens/Gravely owners.  Gives you part number and diagrams for all Ariens GT models.  Take a look and hopefully it could be of use to you.  

 

Oh btw. Im located not too far from you.  Marengo to be exact.. :)

Things are starting to make some sense. Since I bought this machine the hour meter has spun like a top. Now I know why. I will buy a new switch and get that installed as long as I'm working on this.

 I am trying to get all the safety switches working on my equipment. My son is getting to the age that he can be using this stuff and I don't want to take any unnecessary chances. My older nephew had a close call this summer when his wife backed over him with their Toro  that has a front mount mower. If the seat switch had not shut the machine off when she jumped up, the running mower deck could have tore him up much worse. They were both glad it had been him and not one of their young sons that got caught. 


Edited by runagun, October 30, 2018 - 05:36 PM.

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#12 Hector_Sosa OFFLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2018 - 09:38 AM

Sorry, I was away from the computer for a couple days.  Looks like others are pointing you in the right direction.



#13 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

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Posted October 31, 2018 - 07:46 PM

I went with just basic heavy duty 12v push pull switches rated for 20 or 25 amps,,, that's not to say that they Have that amperage going thru them at any given time, but they "could".... I have my PTO's fused at 10A each so that will limit juice before the switches will ever carry anywhere near what they are "rated" for...    each switch has 2 screw terminals///   one for the fused "+" and the power lead to the PTO off the other terminal. 

with any of the other switches something from NAPA or some other reputable parts store will work fine but for the ignition switch itself I stay with the OEM switch.... that is NOT the same thing as saying that "it has to come from Ariens" because that switch was used by SO MANY others.... and battery ignition has a different switch than magneto style does. they look identical on the outside but are different internally. Gotta pay attention to how the terminals are labelled to get the right one.  INDAK made the switches for nearly all tractor manufacturers, and there really aren't that many among the manufactures of the equipment, though those are the ones that would like you to think that. 


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#14 Fischnuts OFFLINE  

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Posted April 27, 2019 - 04:53 PM

A big "Thank you" to everyone on this thread.
I got my big Ariens back together and running today! She had been on blocks for over two years. What started out as a leaky power steering hose fix turned into a electrical wiring problem. When I finally got back to the diagnosis last month I found a shorted out fuse block and and a crossed wire on the rear PTO switch. BTW: I have the seat switch hooked up now and the hour meter shuts off like it is supposed to.
Then....after sitting for long it had no spark. I had to put in a new set of points. In reading the manual on setting the gap on the points, I saw that if they are not set correctly the engine will back fire when shutting off. They must have been messed up for a long time. I can't remember when it didn't back fire when I turned it off.
It will be so nice to have use of this machine again and running the way it was made to.

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Edited by Fischnuts, April 27, 2019 - 04:55 PM.

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