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Ethanol free pre-mix?

ethanol 2-cycle 4 cycle pre-mix

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#16 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 09:53 PM

Well just as I suspected there is no clear decision on this issue.  Both sides are dug in and are not budging.  I know what I do with my gas works as I have never had any of the common issues I hear about E-10.  With what I have read, I do not understand why we are still required to use the stuff.  Our cars get less fuel mileage, it does not help the environment, and food costs have gone up because of the stuff.  And to top it off we now have E-15. 


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#17 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:02 PM

Comparing apples to oranges.  How do you figure that ethanol raised the price of food?  Mainly white corn is used for food products, yellow corn is used to make ethanol.  What little yellow corn is used for corn meal, etc. is not worth mentioning.  Field corn (yellow) is a $3.02 a bushel and that raised the price of food ? ? ?  Ethanol was never intended to improve the environment.  It was intended to make fuel go further and it does.  Also is a big boost to the economy.

Are there still subsidies paid by the government for ethanol? 


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#18 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:20 PM

Are there still subsidies paid by the government for ethanol? 

 

Yes every gallon. The way the bills for ethanol were originally set up as I remember it was, (this may need to be verified) No agricultural products used for human consumption (corn, soybeans, ect.) shall be used in making fuel additives, such as ethanol. Agricultural by products such as stalks, ears and hay were to be used. It was written this way because of the concerns over rising food prices.

As far as energy savings- how many BTU's of heat (natural gas) does it take to produce one gallon of ethanol? You start looking into this and the facts might knock you off your chair. Every time I drive by our ethanol plant and see millions of BTU's coming out of the stacks it makes me sick. With a little bit of creative engineering I would think at least some of that heat could be reclaimed.

Was it good for the farmers and did ethanol raise corn prices, Yes. 

 

 

When ethanol first came out and people like me were using old tractors (WC Allis) boy did the problems start showing up. After the first tank of ethanol, fuel filters and sediment bowls started plugging up. We were told ethanol would help keep water from accumulating in the gas tanks. Anyone who has had gas tractors that set out knows this is a real problem so a lot of us were willing to give it a try. What they didn't tell us was that it was going to rot fuel hoses & Carburetor gaskets. They also didn't tell us that if there was any rust or corrosion in the fuel system it would start cutting it loose and plugging everything up. So there we are in the middle of winter, tractors won't start or run and we have to work in raw gas with bare hands when it's freezing cold out. This in itself really endeared me to the stuff. 


Edited by Cvans, December 07, 2016 - 11:01 PM.

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#19 MiCarl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:25 PM

The old days pure gasoline would form varnish if it sat a very long time.  E10 sucks moisture out of the air, forms gooey globules and the water corrodes the brass parts in carburetors.  If the humidity is high it can only take a few weeks.  The moisture the E10 soaks up will also corrode a fuel tank, even if it's full.  I don't think tanks ever corroded when full of pure gasoline.

 

All my carbureted engines get treated fuel if they will sit for more than a couple weeks.  The stuff at the lake place (where the humidity is high) never sees untreated fuel.

 

The Stihl chain saw a bought a couple years ago claimed that ethanol burns at a higher temperature than pure gasoline.  The book recommended that if running E10 a higher octane be used to reduce cylinder temperatures and extend life.

 

There were two reasons used to justify the ethanol mandate.  1) Reduce carbon emissions and 2) reduce dependence on fuel imports.  I think there is general consensus that the carbon emitted in ethanol production more than makes up for any savings at the tail pipe.  Turns out we seem to have plenty of our own oil.

 

As far as I know the only lobby currently supporting the ethanol mandate is the ethanol industry (which includes farmers).  You can argue that the corn used in ethanol production isn't the same corn used in the food chain but it does compete for acres and other resources - driving up the cost of other types of corn, wheat, beans etc.

 

The only suitable use for corn ethanol is fermentation and a long soak in an oak barrel.


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#20 MiCarl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:30 PM

Cvans, you are mistaken.  Fermenting grain or fruit produces ethanol.  Stalks, leaves, hay etc. produce methanol when they ferment.  Methanol is poisonous and carelessness with the materials that went into the fermentation is the reason people used to be blinded or killed by moonshine.

 

G. W. Bush had some program to encourage producing methanol (it can be used as fuel) from some sort of grass - but I don't think it went anywhere.


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#21 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:40 PM

Your probably right but as stated that was from memory. I'll make note of your information in that post.

 

I don't think tanks ever corroded when full of pure gasoline.

 

The problem is I don't know of anyone who operated these old tractors kept their fuel tanks full all the time. Most had sediment bowls and it wasn't unusual to see them half full of water. Also the old fuel storage tanks especially above ground were prone to collecting moisture. In the winters around here it wasn't at all unusual to start your tractor in subzero weather and not have any oil pressure because ice crystals had plugged the screen on the pickup tube. The later 2 cylinder JD's had a oil pressure valve in the fuel line that would shut fuel flow to the engine if this happened. Then you either had to heat the tractors crankcase or drain the oil, take it in the house and to heat and pour it back in the tractor. I've had to do this and it's no fun out in the wind and cold. 

Even had the bull gears in the rear end freeze solid. That moisture gets everywhere.  


Edited by Cvans, December 08, 2016 - 12:03 AM.

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#22 Cat385B OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:44 PM

We have E-0 fuel available here, and I use it in anything with less than 4 cylinders.
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#23 ol' stonebreaker OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 10:51 PM

  One of our stations sells non ethanol gas and it's all I use in my two outboards and all my small engines, both 2 and 4 cycle. Those that sleep thru the winter have the tanks siphoned as empty as I can get them. Then they're and run 'til they die and I haven't had any problems doing this. The snowblower engine gets the same treatment for the summer.

  As for the premix discussion I can't believe people will pay the same price for 50/50 antifreeze as they would for straight antifreeze. Have we become so dumbed down we don't know how to fill a container 1/2 full of water and the top it off with straight antfreeze?? Or is it  a case of just too lazy or it's just too convenient??

   I'm not a farmer, but as for the yellow corn, true, there isn't much used for human food. But how much is used to feed cattle, pigs,  sheep and chickens? It's one of the reasons we've seen the price of meats go up due to competition from ethanol IMO. Look up how many btu's it takes to make a gallon of ethanol and how many btu's you get from it. If the ethanol producers had to stand on their own they'd go belly up but we the taxpayers keep them going. Maybe big brother should start subsidizing the meat producers to offset the extra cost of the corn and no, don't try to say I'm a Bernie supporter.

                         OK, rant over,

                                                Mike 


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#24 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 11:12 PM

It was intended to make fuel go further and it does.  Also is a big boost to the economy.

To make fuel go further - at what cost?   Big boost to the economy - surely not mine, maybe yours!  Now I have to buy additives and treatments to try and eliminate problems.  I wonder Chieffan, are you connected in any way to the production of ethanol or the additives to prevent problems?  Just curious.

 

Well I figured when I posted this there would be opinions on both sides, but seems most at this point are not for the high priced ethanol free fuel. 


Edited by earthgrinder, December 07, 2016 - 11:15 PM.

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#25 adamjd200 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 11:20 PM

Ok new spin on this, I remember when corn skyrocketed in price, they were hauling it to a local ethanol plant by the semi load, dairy farmers feed prices went up but milk prices didn't, many farms in the area went under, the only thing I own that sees e10 is my truck, I buy non-ethanol for everything else, if I need mix gas I fill a 2gal can and add mix oil, he way we've done it for years.  I have at least six stations near me that sell non-ethanol.


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#26 adamjd200 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 11:26 PM

  One of our stations sells non ethanol gas and it's all I use in my two outboards and all my small engines, both 2 and 4 cycle. Those that sleep thru the winter have the tanks siphoned as empty as I can get them. Then they're and run 'til they die and I haven't had any problems doing this. The snowblower engine gets the same treatment for the summer.

  As for the premix discussion I can't believe people will pay the same price for 50/50 antifreeze as they would for straight antifreeze. Have we become so dumbed down we don't know how to fill a container 1/2 full of water and the top it off with straight antfreeze?? Or is it  a case of just too lazy or it's just too convenient??

   I'm not a farmer, but as for the yellow corn, true, there isn't much used for human food. But how much is used to feed cattle, pigs,  sheep and chickens? It's one of the reasons we've seen the price of meats go up due to competition from ethanol IMO. Look up how many btu's it takes to make a gallon of ethanol and how many btu's you get from it. If the ethanol producers had to stand on their own they'd go belly up but we the taxpayers keep them going. Maybe big brother should start subsidizing the meat producers to offset the extra cost of the corn and no, don't try to say I'm a Bernie supporter.

                         OK, rant over,

                                                Mike 

Completely agree, I've seen the feed price issue first hand, they did pull the funding for a very short time and several plants went under, I never understood 50/50 antifreeze either.


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#27 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2016 - 11:41 PM

I never understood 50/50 antifreeze either.

I use Toyota's super long life antifreeze and I think it only comes in 50/50 mix.  Some of the reasons I do this are explained on the page I have a link to here.  https://www.integrit....com/antifreeze


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#28 karel OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 06:54 AM

Do I have to "Quote" Good ole P.T. Barnum, Again!


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#29 LilysDad ONLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 07:27 AM

  Ethanol was never intended to improve the environment.  It was intended to make fuel go further and it does.  Also is a big boost to the economy.

I don't see how it makes fuel go further. Your adding filler to the gas which makes it get poorer gas milage, so you end up burning more fuel to go the same distance.


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#30 1oldbuzz OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 07:31 AM

Thanks for the reply.  I am interested in hearing what others have to say on this subject. 

ethanol will eat away at rubber hose from the inside as well as

most rubber gaskets inside a carb

I have learned this first hand

I used pure gas (no ethanol) with stabil in all my small engines

and anything seasonal

have done this for 5 years have not had an issue yet

also I do not run out or drain fuel

 

ethanol/or corn has not raised the cost of food--

what has contributed to higher food cost is the price of diesel

when diesel was nearing $5 a gallon is when food prices soared

not to mention all the package delivery services added a fuel sure charge to shipping cost

 

Well now I ask diesel has come way down why didn't food?


Edited by 1oldbuzz, December 08, 2016 - 07:42 AM.

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