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A question for you hydraulic drive experts


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#1 Boss 448 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 01, 2011 - 04:30 PM

I am planning on installing a 10 HP China diesel engine in a Case 222 that utilizes a true hydraulic (not hydrostatic) drive system and rear hydraulic PTO for a hydro-vac. I am wondering if there would be any advantage to installing a larger capacity hydraulic pump at the same time. I know that the diesel engine will have more torque and should have no problem driving a (reasonably) larger pump. My concern is that I would end up just bypassing more fluid under normal operation and just creating more heat in the hydraulic system. On the other hand a diesel will create torque at lower engine speeds so perhaps I could just throttle the engine slower in normal conditions and speed it up a little when running the hydra-vac or wanting faster ground speed.

I have no plans for a hydraulic sucking front end loader so does a larger pump make sense or should I just save my money?

Ideas...?

JN

#2 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted December 01, 2011 - 04:35 PM

If the diesel runs the same speed as the gas OE engine, I would not up the size of the pump. All the works are geared to the flow of the factory size pump, so as you say, more oil would be bypassing, just creating more heat.

#3 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted December 01, 2011 - 04:37 PM

I'm not an expert on hydrive but if you are replacing a 12hp gas engine with a 10hp diesel you wont be gaining much. If the current hydraulic system is working fine for you I don't feel it would be worth the change. I'll leave it to experts to comment in more detail.

#4 mjodrey OFFLINE  

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Posted December 02, 2011 - 05:23 AM

I am no expert,but I think you'll be fine.

#5 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted December 02, 2011 - 05:35 AM

Keep it the same, the extra volume will create heat as stated , and the diesel isn't that much stronger believe it or not, a 12 HP Kohler is Very powerful ! I think you may find that China diesel will be working hard enough .

#6 Billygoat OFFLINE  

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Posted December 02, 2011 - 08:19 PM

What is the rpm of the diesel? The pumps on Case gt's are sized by displacement as are the drive motors. To have proper operation of the drive motor or any other hydraulic attachment that uses a hydraulic motor, you must be able to move the same amount of fluid as the stock pump. Therefore if the diesel limits out at say 2400 rpm, you should find a pump that displaces .65 cu in or so at @ 2400 rpm.
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#7 Billygoat OFFLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 06:23 AM

I started thinking about my previous post and realized I didn't explain what was in my head very well. A stock Case pump displaces about .65 cu in / revolution. When driven @ 3600 rpm it will pump a certain amount of oil (I'm think 8 gpm but not sure right now). The pump that you will need to use on the diesel will need to pump the same gpm at the max rpm of the diesel. In my wal of thinking you would need a larger displacement pump to make up the volume due to lower max rpm. I'm sorry for any confusion and hope this helps.
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#8 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 07:53 AM

Most of the little China diesels run at 3600 rpm . A .65 ci/rpm at 3600 rpm comes out to about 7.25 gpm roughly figured. One thing you should keep in mind too is psi and the pumps efficiency to produce it. And at what rpm window this happens. There is a difference between "mobile" and "industrial" . Industrial component have very high tolerances and are actually temp sensitive along with other inputs,like rpm as well. So be sure your pump is a "mobile" unit.
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#9 Boss 448 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 08:29 AM

My 10 HP China-D is rated at 3600 RPM so it should be a good swap for the old Kohler gasoline engine. The benefits I expect to gain with the diesel power plant are improved torque and maintaining power under heavy load and much better fuel economy. Other non-tangible benefits should include diesel knock, smoke and smell. The single biggest problem that I anticipate at this point is the fact that the engine will not fit under the hood. I will need to radically modify the existing hood or replace it entirely with something else. I am currently wondering how it would appear aesthetically if I 'bobbed' the hood at the front of the engine and let the engine ride proudly in the open. There are no rules for GT styling but I do want the appearance to be worthy to post pictures here when I am done. I know that most conversions focus on retaining a conventional hood (perhaps modified to fit) but hot rod builders have shunned enclosed hoods for decades. We'll just have to see how it goes.

JN

#10 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 08:41 AM

Is there any way you could drop the engine down a touch?

#11 Toolpartzman OFFLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 09:08 AM

Most of the little China diesels run at 3600 rpm . A .65 ci/rpm at 3600 rpm comes out to about 7.25 gpm roughly figured. One thing you should keep in mind too is psi and the pumps efficiency to produce it. And at what rpm window this happens. There is a difference between "mobile" and "industrial" . Industrial component have very high tolerances and are actually temp sensitive along with other inputs,like rpm as well. So be sure your pump is a "mobile" unit.

That's a very important point that skyrdryr2 made. I would keep the pump operating within spec.

#12 Boss 448 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 11:35 AM

Is there any way you could drop the engine down a touch?


Good thought, but no. The base of the diesel engine is wider than the gas engine as it is. On the Case 222 the engine sits on a mounting plate that straddles the frame rails and is isolated at the frame mounts with vibration dampening mounts. There is no room to lower the engine between the frame rails - wish there was.

JN

#13 Billygoat OFFLINE  

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Posted December 03, 2011 - 01:19 PM

I didn't know those little diesels could turn up like that. If it can turn 3600 rpm, the factory pump will be fine. According to "the book" the factory pumps are rated @ 8.5 gpm. Engine location is going to be determined in part by room for the pump. There's not a lot of room between the tower and the engine. As far as the frame, have you seen pics of the Case gt with the V6 in it? Could give you some ideas.

#14 Boss 448 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 04, 2011 - 08:32 AM

Most of the air cooled China-D engines I have seen are rated at 3600 RPM. The exception is the China-D clones of the Changa design engine that feature the hopper water cooled design which are rated from 1800 - 2200 RPM. The Changa design engines are designed to operate in stationary applications running water pumps, generators, etc.

I don't know about clearance issues with the hydraulic pump yet. I hope to get a chance to pull the old Kohler engine and start test fitting within the next couple of weeks.

JN

#15 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted December 04, 2011 - 09:49 AM

Can you strip off the extra high stuff on the diesel like the fuel tank and stuff to get its profile a bit lower? , then relocate this stuff off to the sides ? I guess I would need to see the engine, I have a Yanmar single diesel and it is almost the exact same height and width as my Kohler 301 ? But it doesnt have the fuel tank over the head , as it is on a generator.




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