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Hydraulics Guru's needed for a little advice


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73 replies to this topic

#31 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 23, 2011 - 06:32 PM

WOW...this poor thread has nearly gone viral. :smile1: JK

This info is helping me narrow down several possibilities. Concerns are warranted, I have them myself. As to the mechanical abilities of the tractor, there will be a few mods made, a complete rear end out of a Cub Cadet (cast iron) is one option I've been looking at.
When I'm done with the project, I'm hoping for a "sleeper 116" so that at first or second glance, all but the 3-point, looks stock 116. Part of the reason behind getting the 116H earlier this fall, is that the 5-speed will be down for awhile. The garden was even fenced last year, with this little project in mind. I move slowly but like to do things once, correctly. For what it's worth, I have a few tools and like to use them, when time permits. If you think this little project is an insane man, calling out for help...I won't even mention the car in the shop that is 90% finished and ready for final paint. :blush2:

And this is one from a few years ago. Part Yamaha, part Suzuki, part Honda, and even a Harley piece or two. :D

Posted Image

#32 cp7 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 23, 2011 - 07:19 PM

At least you started with motorcycle parts to build that bike.
In this project your wanting to make a garden tractor out of a lawn mower (once again no offense). The trans is just your first weak point. A Cub rear should work but they make riding mowers too. The next weak link will be the "Pressed "tin" = 1/8" thick stamped steel rails".

Fab jobs are always cool but you should start with something capable of standing the stress you want to subject it to.
I know you didn't use electrical conduit on the frame of your bike did you? :confuse:

#33 Toolpartzman OFFLINE  

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Posted November 24, 2011 - 03:35 AM

Good looking bike. I'd love to have that engine in an old JD 170 I have. Now THAT"S insane.:dancingbanana:

#34 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted November 24, 2011 - 07:09 AM

Been reading this thread from the beginning , lots of good stuff , I have a question , ( if I can word it right ) how big of a hyd pump will you be able to run using a V belt drive , or would there have to be multiple belts to keep from slipping ? Thanks , Al

#35 Jehtro OFFLINE  

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Posted November 24, 2011 - 08:35 AM

The 116 Frame was solid, its not stamped. Everything on the tractor was solid except for the transaxle.

If your swaping the transaxle, I think it would be a great project, would love to see it when its done.
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#36 ducky OFFLINE  

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Posted November 24, 2011 - 09:54 AM

Pumps Off when lowering the deck.


Question: How are you going to turn the pump on and off between lifting and lowering?

#37 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted November 24, 2011 - 06:27 PM

Been reading this thread from the beginning , lots of good stuff , I have a question , ( if I can word it right ) how big of a hyd pump will you be able to run using a V belt drive , or would there have to be multiple belts to keep from slipping ? Thanks , Al


1 Horsepower = 1 gpm @ 1714 psi. Most V-belts on GTs are A-section. Here's a chart.

V Belt Design Chart, Horse Power vs Service Factor - Engineers Edge

Some of the heavy GTs with Sundstand hydros use a pair of A-section belts. The Sundstrand displaces 0.913 cubic inches per revolution and is relieved at 1500 psi. At 3450 rpm it will move 13.6 gpm at 1500 psi and need 11.9 hp. Sort of overkill in the belt department, but the belts will typically last well over 600 hours of service if the tension is maintained.

I use a single belt on my 8 gpm, 1500 psi FEL pump and have changed it once in over 2000 hours of service.

Edited by TUDOR, November 24, 2011 - 06:32 PM.
Additional info.

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#38 Toolpartzman OFFLINE  

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Posted November 25, 2011 - 05:33 AM

Question: How are you going to turn the pump on and off between lifting and lowering?

The circuit assumes an electric PTO switch controlling the pump(on/off), and that no two functions are available jointly, AND that the lift is gravity -lower. The advantage that this or any circuit provides is a visual representation of design goals, irrespective of cost or operational convenience. Changes can be made easily, and then requirements for flow rates, pressures plugged in. It acts somewhat like a working paper or shopping list. For Example, if switching the PTO on/off, of if the two hand valves cannot be mounted adjoining one another, this may be inconvenient. OR if this lift cylinder is operated with another function, then an additional directional valve must be added and possibly the cylinder changed to a double acting cylinder. When the circuit is complete and correct as required, then the system will be correct when installed.---Its especially helpful to add up component costs$.

#39 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted November 25, 2011 - 09:04 AM

Thanks for that site TUDOR , I looked at it a little but I'll have to spend a little more time trying to understand those charts . Lots of good info there , Al

#40 ducky OFFLINE  

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Posted November 25, 2011 - 09:16 AM

The circuit assumes an electric PTO switch controlling the pump(on/off), and that no two functions are available jointly, AND that the lift is gravity -lower. The advantage that this or any circuit provides is a visual representation of design goals, irrespective of cost or operational convenience. Changes can be made easily, and then requirements for flow rates, pressures plugged in. It acts somewhat like a working paper or shopping list. For Example, if switching the PTO on/off, of if the two hand valves cannot be mounted adjoining one another, this may be inconvenient. OR if this lift cylinder is operated with another function, then an additional directional valve must be added and possibly the cylinder changed to a double acting cylinder. When the circuit is complete and correct as required, then the system will be correct when installed.---Its especially helpful to add up component costs$.


Thanks, the circuit design had me a bit confused not knowing all the factors. Sorry.

#41 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 25, 2011 - 11:01 AM

See...many heads are better than one ! :smile1:

I'm looking for a system pressure of 2500psi MAX and more in the range of 1500-2000 psi working pressure. Total gallons per minute in the range of 8-12 and a single stage pump. Efficiencies are calculated at 65% so as not to stress the system.

Max weight on the 3-point...somewhere in the 350-400lbs range.

The tiller will need a hydro motor that puts out 7.5-10hp at the above mentioned system specs, with a final drive/tine rotational speed of 160-200 RPMs.

The pump (I'm not letting go of the single pump option yet) will be permanently mounted and run via a gear belt system. If I could locate an electric cluth combo that would handle the job, and not break the budget, I may consider that option. Would actually prefer that option...

Like this but nowhere near as complex:
Posted Image

This brings me to the rear end. I am not stuck on the Cub rear ends and would gladly welcome ANY suggestions as to strength, size, prefer 5-speed, ect. Drive for the rear end will likely be belt.

As for those with the frame concerns, though it IS "stamped/formed", she is stocky and stout. In any areas that I have a stress concerns, it will be boxed in. There are individual frame rails and they are huck-bolted together. All of 3/16" or better and a tall profile over the rear end. They taper to a 3 1/2" profile, just ahead of the steering stack. The 116's are by all rights, a full framed tractor.

The deck lift cylinder and the 3-point lift cylinder, are one in the same. Linkage will connect that system together. Deck will still be powered by V-belt/electric PTO. Three point and deck will raise and lower together. When the tiller is on, the deck will be removed.

I have yet to rule out power steering but not sure it is needed and or if there is room...

Edited by dave8338, November 25, 2011 - 11:11 AM.


#42 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 25, 2011 - 08:31 PM

At least you started with motorcycle parts to build that bike.
In this project your wanting to make a garden tractor out of a lawn mower (once again no offense). The trans is just your first weak point. A Cub rear should work but they make riding mowers too. The next weak link will be the "Pressed "tin" = 1/8" thick stamped steel rails".

I know you didn't use electrical conduit on the frame of your bike did you? :confuse:


Ahhhh... Ye of Little Faith. Posted Image


Nope, no conduit in THAT bike. :D


No conduit here, either. Posted Image.

Posted Image

OR hear...

Posted Image

I work in an office all day and when I get home at night, I like to apply a little of what my father taught me, growing up.

THANKS Dad. :worshippy1:

#43 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 28, 2011 - 02:22 PM

OK...did some more measuring on the 116 yesterday and it seems that the best placement for the Hydro pump and the belt drive system (looking at several clutch options) , is in the location behind the steering stack. I'm planning on running the pump (clutch) off the TOP or flywheel end of the Briggs. Non conventional I know, but nothing about this little nightmare, is going to be conventional. :smile1:

I'll have to relocate the battery to the open area between the seat and the steering stack and make a new tunnel cover for it and maybe the reservoir, depending on how much room is available, after a test fit on the pump. I would prefer to have the reservior mounted as close to the pump as possible and if I can build one to fit the space, it too, will be tucked in behind the steering stack. There is a mesh screen on the steering stack that will allow for an electric pusher-fan on a thermostat, to cool the oil tank and I've located a few heat sink blocks, that will work nicely.

Still collecting pieces/parts...

#44 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 30, 2011 - 12:30 AM

Here is shot of the frame rail. They are spereate from the "pan" and are more than "should be needed" ... for the project.
Posted Image
Though they do not connect on the front end (they will), they are connected by a plate on the rear.

This is a view from the bottom side. As you can see, things are tight. :wallbanging:
Posted Image

And a shot from on top.
Posted Image
Where the battery is now located, "the plan", is to mount the pump here and maybe a portion of the reservoir. Locations for the battery, have yet to be determined. I may go with an AGM sealed battery, so as to be able to mount it in any direction or location, that will hold it. Only so much room, on these little buggers. The pump is on the way... Eaton H series gear drive motor too... :bounce:

#45 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted November 30, 2011 - 06:28 AM

Looks like you'll be scratching you head on the pump location ! It's a shame you couldn't mount the pump underneath then the tank would be above it . Maybe you could , it would take more effort but you run a pulley off the top to a jackshaft , 2 pillow blocks and a lovejoy coupling at the pump , Al
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