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Hydraulics Guru's needed for a little advice


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#1 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 12:02 PM

I have mentioned that I will be adding a cat#0 three point to my 5-speed JD116. Keep in mind that I am aware of the fact, that it would be easier to find a 300-400 series JD that already had the hitch/hydraulics in place. I'm not after "easy". :blush2:

I have been doing a good deal of reading on the specs, applications, flow capacities, and pressures w/RPM tables for various pumps, motors, and control valves.

Here is what I will be using on the three point hitch:

1) 36" JD tiller, converted to cat#0 mount and hydraulic drive motor. If my calculations are correct, a HP rating of 5-7 on the hydraulic motor will be more than enough to power the tiller.

2) A vertical log splitter with a 18" capacity.

Most splitters run a 2-stage pump. One for approach and then a higher PSI/ lower flow capacity, for splitting the log. I'm not too concerned with the approach speed as I cut my own wood for the shop and can make the logs any length I want.

3) I will be converting my deck lift to hydraulic and will be using a single cylinder for both the 3-point and the deck. Have that figured out already...

I want the opperating pressure of the system in the 700-2000PSI range and a flow capacity of 10 GPM.

My question(s): Would a 2-stage pump be the way to go? Anyone running an attachment with a hydraulic motor and if so, what are you using for a pump? Open center or closed center system? Anything else I might be missing?

Thanks, Guys

Dave

#2 ducky OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 12:17 PM

First 700 psi seems a bit lower for the tiller and splitter.
I would shoot for 2000-2500 psi. This may put a pretty good load on the engine though. I do not think this will be an issue on the tiller but a nasty log in the splitter will put the 16 hp on her knees. Also check your motor floe rating on the tiller and be sure the pump flow will match what the motor requires.
Definitely go open center, simple and to keep the cost in line. JM2CW
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#3 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 01:15 PM

My recomendations would be a small pump to power the tractors deck and 3 point hitch, and use a pto driven pump for the tiller and splitter. the tiller will not like a small 2 stage pump at all ,as it needs constant pressure and volume (probably around the 8-10 gpm at a max of 1500psi) This requires at least 3 gallons of resevoir and if you were to run your 3 point off this pump it would throw the attachments over your head, as it is way too much volume and pressure. The splitter without a nice 2 stage pump ,running at the volume needed to run the tiller, would, as earlier stated, kill that 16 hp right now! So how can you make this all work ?
Keep doing your home work and keep us posted :thumbs:
get the small pump unit they had as an option for hydraulic deck/hitch on the tractor. Then get the largest 2 stage pump you can get, (23gpm barnes unit) and run it off the tractors pto for the tiller and splitter. Be sure each attachment has a resevoir on it and NEVER EVER TURN ON THE PUMP UNLESS CONNECTED ! Or you will smoke something! Probably the clutch and pump.
Some will say the pump is too big, I say no way ! 16 hp is plenty to run this 2 stage pump ,as it can easily be ajusted to the correct pressure to kick it down into low volume. And the reason you want high volume for the splitter is not for just approach, but for return as well ! Use the largest hose you can too. This will make the splitter cycle times fast, especially if it doesnt have a 4 way wedge .
Same goes for the tiller, that rig will till like crazy . But you may need to ajust the kick down pressure to keep the volume up ,but I dout it will be nessesary as long as the motor is spec'ed correctly.
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#4 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 01:25 PM

This is the kind of info that I'm looking for ! I'm going to be collecting the pieces/parts for the next couple of months and continue putting it all together in the early spring. Cylinder(s) and valves are the easy part. I'm wanting to do this correctly the first time. Rather spend my time "thinking" about it, than fixing it, later. Keep those suggestions rolling....

#5 Toolpartzman OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 01:35 PM

:ditto: I'll put in with skyrider2-bigger the better. One thing that was left out, that you should check---can't remember for certain--but I think that splitter needs at, or north of, 25 Ton of force--that's where pressure and piston diameter will be important.--LeeB
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#6 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 02:48 PM

I thought the OP had the splitter all ready ? OH BOY ! This can be exciting now !
For your tiller you will need a priority valve to divert the extra flow not needed back through a cooler and then to the tank, this will make it bullet proof, but not totally nessesary if the tank is large enough. Now for the splitter , 4.5" cylinder will split average wood perfectly, not so much with a 4 way wedge, 5" with the pump stated earlier running at 3600 rpm and reliefs set for 3500psi.....will slit some serious wood! Pi x R2=A x psi=Force/2000 will give you your tons of push. remember on the splitter to figure in your yield strength of the steel ... and divide by 10 for a safety factor. All the time keeping the force figure fresh , this kind of force needs good materials .

#7 Toolpartzman OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 03:50 PM

Going to be lots of head-scratching, planning and replanning and then the tough part is getting it all mounted to the GT. Sounds like a fun time:rolleyes:

#8 Toolpartzman OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 03:56 PM

OOPS, forgot to mention--"Brand" makes a log splitter valve that has automatic shift to return, that most Tractor Supply stores sell and I think its pretty cheap. Real handy when you don't want to stand by while splitting--like having a cup of coffee or dashing for the next log. (Yes "Brand" is the brand name.Think others also)===LeeB

#9 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 05:32 PM

NOPE...no splitter as of yet. Have the materials located for that but want the hydraulics up and ready, first. Still think there should be a way to run the three point/ deck lift cylinder off of the same pump, as the tiller / splitter. A regulator in line, ahead of the control valve for the cylinder, should drop the flow to where ever I would need, so as not to turn the project, into a catapult. Agreed?

#10 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 05:42 PM

Yes you can do this, but you will need a relieved priority valve . And at least 8 gallons of oil on board to keep the pump happy and the prioritized oil returning to the tank should go through a cooler . Do you have room for these? If not ? Your going to have to do some serious refigureing .
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#11 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 05:47 PM

You need 2 pumps, one at 2 gpm and 750 psi for the 3PH and one at 8 - 10 gpm for the splitter and tiller. Double pumps are good if you're running a small engine, but you have more than adequate power available. Speed on approach and return is greatly overrated, especially with an auto return valve. If you pay the least bit of attention, a 10 gpm single pump can operate a splitter as fast or faster than a 23 gpm double pump simply by limiting how much stroke you use, unless you're splitting for profit.

My splitter is run by my 8 gpm FEL pump at 2/3 throttle and rarely does it hit the relief pressure of 1500 psi splitting maple and birch with a 3.5x24 cylinder. Six gpm is a little slow, but 10 gpm would be plenty fast enough.
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#12 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 07:21 PM

Alrighty, then. I assume that the 8gal and oil cooler are to remove excess heat from the system?
If I choose the 2-pump method, I would have to run the 10gpm pump off the electric PTO clutch, in place of the deck/blower mule drive belt. An 8 gal reservoir might be out of the question... hmmmmmm... more time on the drawing board.

#13 skyrydr2 ONLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 08:11 PM

This is why I would run the large pump off the pto, this way you don't need to be lugging the oil and pump around all the time. Personally I would find a small powersteering pump with a remote resivour for convienance . I'm not familiarly with your Deere and what it has for attachment points. If it is a pressed tin tractor, your in for big issues, but if its a framed shaft drive, all this will be much easier.

#14 dave8338 OFFLINE  

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Posted November 21, 2011 - 08:29 PM

Pressed "tin" = 1/8" thick stamped steel rails. Everything bolts to these rails...

16hp vertical Briggs twin. The only PTO is the electric clutched PTO off the bottom of the engine, with a 5" diameter V-pulley, that runs the deck, blower, ect.

Belt driven trans axel.

I'm sure heads are shaking, at this point. :D

#15 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted November 22, 2011 - 05:03 AM

NOPE...no splitter as of yet. Have the materials located for that but want the hydraulics up and ready, first. Still think there should be a way to run the three point/ deck lift cylinder off of the same pump, as the tiller / splitter. A regulator in line, ahead of the control valve for the cylinder, should drop the flow to where ever I would need, so as not to turn the project, into a catapult. Agreed?


I'm a firm advocate of the K I S S principle. Hydraulic components are not cheap and neither are hoses. Adding a flow control plus 2 additional hose terminations almost covers the cost of an small pump. As Keith says, you may also be looking for a cooler to deal with the extra heat from the flow control, although there are other solutions for that.

For mobile hydraulic systems the reservoir should be sized from 1/4 to 1 times the max gpm pump flow used from that reservoir depending on a few factors, including; ambient temperature, time of use, average workload (pressure) and surface area of the reservoir. For example, the pump for my FEL has a max flow of 8 gpm out of 2 reservoirs containing a total of 2 gallons of oil. The reservoirs are the 2x4 posts for the loader and have a lot of surface area, enough area to keep the oil from overheating for several hours of hard use in 80+* temperatures. That system has almost 2000 hours of use without ever overheating. A single short square or round reservoir with the same vo;ume and conditions would need an oil cooler.

That example is for the use of cylinders which do not operate at high pressure for very long at a time (usually only a few seconds), have quite a bit of cooling time between each work session and also have the surface area of the cylinders to help dump heat. Hydraulic motors labour under high pressure constantly, have very little surface area, and need correspondingly larger reservoirs and probably auxilliary cooling as well.

A power steering pump with a remote reservoir would be just right for your implement and 3PH lifting cylinders.

Edited by TUDOR, November 22, 2011 - 05:09 AM.





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