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Standard Twin Pyramid Lugs

standard twin pyramid lugs

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#16 Clifford Bridgford OFFLINE  

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Posted December 25, 2017 - 08:10 PM

The lugs would be produced from cast iron. Without going through a complete (and costly) metallurgical analysis, this is what we suspect the the original lugs were cast from.

I talked to Emanuel at Cattail Foundry this summer about getting lugs cast for a T45HW Shaw.  He advised me that cast iron would break in this application and they would have to be cast steel to survive any work where they might hit a stone.  Unfortunately, he does not do steel castings.

 

Cliff


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#17 1940Twin OFFLINE  

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Posted December 26, 2017 - 07:58 AM

My extension rim lugs are much newer/longer/sharper than the regular wheel lugs.
Not a very good pic but its crammed in a shed and I had to climb on other tractors to get to it.


Thanks for the picture of the lug on the extension rim GTractor. You have a nice looking tractor there. The lugs on your extension rims are what I suspect to be near new condition. I am referencing the pictures of Twin tractors in the original Standard garden tractor brochure to make this determination. I thought I downloaded the copy I have from the manuals section on this site a while back but can't seem to find it there now. I also have recently acquired a Walsh which has pyramid lugs with minimal wear, having a squared tip, not rounded off from wear. This is similar to the squared lug tips in the picture in post #7 and the lugs on your extension rims.

If you don't mind climbing back over your other tractors to get to it again, could you please measure the hight of the lug, the width of the tip, the width at the base of the lug, and the thickness of the protrusion which hangs over the side of the lug?

#18 1940Twin OFFLINE  

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Posted December 26, 2017 - 08:05 AM

I would have to do some checking but I think they offered different lugs in the catalog.


Thanks for the input Doug, let us know what you come up with. I am aware that the Walsh tractors were equipped with a smaller/shorter pyramid lug. I'm not sure about the Monarch. I had looked through all the original literature I have on the Twin and all the lugs have looked similar to what is on GTractor's extension rims.

#19 GWest OFFLINE  

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Posted December 26, 2017 - 11:49 AM

Wonder how many miles it takes to wear cast iron down like that by repeatedly sticking it in the ground?

 

Garry



#20 1940Twin OFFLINE  

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Posted December 26, 2017 - 03:09 PM

I talked to Emanuel at Cattail Foundry this summer about getting lugs cast for a T45HW Shaw. He advised me that cast iron would break in this application and they would have to be cast steel to survive any work where they might hit a stone. Unfortunately, he does not do steel castings.

Cliff

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't heard of Cattail Foundry before now, but after doing some research I see that they do some top quality work and are recommended by many. I would not question Emanuel's expertise, however would contest his comment to an extent, or perhaps need to clairify mine concerning the use of cast iron for the lugs. It looks like Cattail casts many parts that would be applicable for gray iron. I found an article where they casted a Case boiler stack. This part and those similar to it used on steam traction engines would of course not be cycle fatique loaded or receive impacts loads that a wheel lug would. The microstructure of gray iron is such that it cannot except these types of loads and would be susceptible to fractures, and this could be what Emanuel was referring to in his comment.

After discussing the pyramid lug application with my contact at the foundry I'm working with, he suspects that they were produced from malleable iron, which is a precursor to today's ductile irons. So for this project the current plan is to use ductile iron. This type of iron is also known as spheriodal graphite iron, describing its microstructure which is much more acceptable to reapeated cycle loading and impacts. The intent of this project is to have a source for a set of lugs which are representative of the original design where they would be suitable for the enthusiast that wants to replace their worn lugs when restoring and showing their tractor, for using it at a plow day, or a few times a year in the garden. I would expect the lugs to last a while without any issues for these applications, but without completing hours of testing under various soil conditions I wouldn't be able to guarantee a life target.

I hope this adds some clairity.

Edited by 1940Twin, December 26, 2017 - 06:15 PM.


#21 Clifford Bridgford OFFLINE  

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Posted December 26, 2017 - 09:32 PM

Hi 1940 Twin,

          Emanuel has cast over seventy parts for me in iron, bronze, and aluminum and he seems to know what is acceptable for the item that you want. I have not had any failures from his castings in any parts that I have used.  He certainly knows more about casting metal then I do.  Although most of my tractors will never be used as hard as they were designed to be, when I restore one, I want it to be the best that it can be.  Unfortunately, some of my restorations have been quite costly, but I could not sleep at night if I skimped on my work, or the quality of the parts I used.  If it has to be used hard, it can be.

 

          I would have your foundry cast a couple of samples, and whack them with a ball pein hammer to see if they stand up.  Whack a couple of worn out twin lugs to compare.  You are better to sacrifice a couple samples then to have a set of 80 cast to find that they are not good.  I have a couple of Viking Twins, and a Walsh, and all the lugs show wear similar to yours, but none are broken.  I think Standard used pretty good material in their products.  The machine work in them is excellent.  Well made machines.

 

Cliff


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#22 1940Twin OFFLINE  

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Posted January 01, 2018 - 04:42 PM

Hi Cliff,

Thanks again for your input. I have personal experience with designing castings of both steel and ductile iron for heavy off-road equipment, and have a good understanding of their microstructures and capabilities of each for different applications. There are some tough applications concerning impact loads where ductile iron is used, because its microstructure is more similar to steel than gray iron. This is why I believe Emanuel was referring to gray iron when he stated that iron would not survive the wheel lug application. In that case I agree fully. There are of course cast steels which would exceed the capabilities of ductile iron, so I understand Emanuel's recommendation to you and by no means feel that it should be dismissed. However, the foundry that I am working with has been pouring iron for over 100 years, so I believe my contact's suspicions that malleable iron was used for the lugs is from historical knowledge of what materials would have been used for this application during the time of production.

I am with you as well concerning the quality of parts used for the restorations of my tractors. I would also lose sleep if I didn't have confidence that these lugs would hold up to their intended use. This project is something I've been thinking about for a while. As with any engineering project I've thought about the risks and how to mitigate them. As there are different grades of ductile iron, the correct grade and strength will need to be determined. An analysis will be performed to determine the stress levels in the lug under the load to the tractor to determine the material grade before any iron is poured. This is where I have started this topic to ask for help in reverse engineering the geometry of the pyramid lugs, not only to have one produced to the original dimensions, but to be able to complete this analysis and proceed with confidence in this project. I will also be installing a full set of lugs on one of my Twins and operating it for a period of time over various surfaces to confirm their reliability before offering sets of lugs to those who are interested in them. Standard certainly made some great tractors and I've always had an appreciation for the engineering that went into them, so I will be taking steps to make sure the reproduction lugs are of the required quality.

I am certainly grateful for the amount of interest and input from everyone for this topic.

Edited by 1940Twin, January 01, 2018 - 04:46 PM.

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#23 Clifford Bridgford OFFLINE  

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Posted January 02, 2018 - 02:43 PM

1940 Twin,

          Keep us informed of your progress with this and the procedure you use for a pattern and core box.  I still need the T45HW lugs, and if yours turn out successful, I will contact your foundry.  Thanks for your help in a needed project.

 

Cliff



#24 1940Twin OFFLINE  

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Posted January 19, 2018 - 04:40 PM

I calculated out the theoretical height of the lug I have pictured in post #7 using the base width (1.5") and outside surface angle. From these calculations I confirmed that the theoretical height is right at 3.0" where the four outside walls of the lug would come to a sharp point. Based upon the picture provided by Gtractor and the lugs of the tractor I have included in post #7, I made an estimation that the width of the lug tip is 0.25". If this is the case then the height of the lug with a 0.25" tip dimension calculates to be exactly 2.5".

Gtractor,

Would you be able take measurements of the height, width across the tip, and base width of the lugs that are on the extension rims of your tractor? Having this information would be a great help to compare against the results of these calculations.

Thanks.
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#25 Gtractor OFFLINE  

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Posted January 19, 2018 - 07:33 PM

Sorry,  I kinda dropped the ball on this deal.  Lots on my mind lately - none of it good.

 

I'll really try to get that tomorrow.


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#26 LilysDad ONLINE  

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Posted January 19, 2018 - 08:19 PM

Your putting a lot of effort into getting an exact copy. Will you be able to get the correct casting marks and the right grade of sand?


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#27 1940Twin OFFLINE  

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Posted January 20, 2018 - 08:36 AM

Sorry,  I kinda dropped the ball on this deal.  Lots on my mind lately - none of it good.
 
I'll really try to get that tomorrow.


No problem. If you could measure the wall thickness from the inside surface of the cored pocket to the outside surface this would be helpful as well.

Thanks again.
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#28 Gtractor OFFLINE  

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Posted January 20, 2018 - 04:49 PM

OK,  Took the time today to measure.  Digital caliper had a dead battery - no idea how long it'd been since I used it.  Luckily I stock watch batteries so that was no big deal.

pictures are crappy to say the least but you can probably see what you need to see.  I measured good, locked the measurement, then held the caliper up for the picture - so if it looks like the caliper ears aren't even in the correct spot to get an accurate measure....  well they may not be.

If you need me to remove a lug and ship it to you just say the word and its on its way - hopefully faster than I was at getting these measurements.  :wallbanging:

 

[pic 1]  Wall thickness in recessed place for bolt access.

[pic 2]  Base of lug.  Lugs are square. so both dimensions are the same. 

[pic 3]  Height.  This is including the lip that hangs over the edge of the wheel rim.  2.8"

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Spike 2.jpg
  • Spike 3.jpg
  • Lug 1.jpg

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#29 Bob White12 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 20, 2018 - 11:18 PM

sorry off topic question but how do you even get the lugs off?? I cant seem to get any wrench in there. do you just stick a wrench in there to stop the bolt from turning? I tried that but I stopped because I thought I was going to break the wrench. I don't need the lugs off right now but I thought I might one day so I want to break them loose.



#30 Gtractor OFFLINE  

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Posted January 21, 2018 - 12:14 AM

As long as those lugs been on there it'll probably take a blue-wrench to remove them.







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