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same tractor, bigger HP within the series?


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#16 mtoney OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 09:44 PM

To see the torque effects on a tractor, look at most dash towers on Cub Cadet 149 and espically the 169.  Usualy cracked around the mounting bolts to the frame.  The Quietlines like the 1650 are better, but the mounts tend to go bad and the poor thing shakes itself apart.  HP comes into play with snowblowing, rototiller work ect.  Newer tractors have to be at rated RPM to make anything torque wise.  pull them down 50 rpm or so off 3600 and the torque falls way off.  Older engines did better with this.  Thats why you see a 22-25hp V twin in a lawn tractor that we used 8-16hp single cylinder engines in the past.  And those were garden tractors back then, able to do ground engaging work like a moldboard field plow.  Cant do that with your 25hp whatever today. A friend of mine has a nice Simplicity Broadmore, big V twin ect, and all he can do is mow and remove snow.  Where as my little 8hp Wheelhorse can rototill, pull a moldboard field plow, cultivators ect.  Even the early Wheel Horses with 4-6hp can do that!    With those bigger HP engines, comes a price and its in fuel consumption.  Those big 16hp single cylinder hood shakers love thier fuel, the flat twin Onan, Kohler and Briggs drink fuel like its going out of style.  But sound great doing it!   I went over to a single cylinder air cooled diesel, all the torque and way less fuel usage for the work being done.    Mike


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#17 secondtry ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 11:24 PM

  I may be wrong but I would think a 16 hp just cruising along getting the job done would last longer than an 8 hp doing all it can.  Don


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#18 Mark 149 J. ONLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 02:23 AM

  I may be wrong but I would think a 16 hp just cruising along getting the job done would last longer than an 8 hp doing all it can.  Don

:iagree:



#19 Oldford OFFLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 04:49 AM

I had a K301, 321, 341.  The bigger ones i'd worry they'd shake out a rod under heavy load, that 12hp ran smoother or so it seemed to me.  Always wanted a K241 with just that much more metal in the bore and perhaps longer life.  but that is just my personal impression.

 

Now i have a flathead briggs twin 16.  it seems to have as much power as my kohler singles and i like the smoothness of it, doesn't feel like it's shaking itself loose.

 

from left field... the Case guys say that 12hp is the maximum power the hydraulic drive can use at the wheels.  anything above that just helps to turn spinning implements easier... mowers, blowers, etc.


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#20 Tecumseh power OFFLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 08:29 AM

To see the torque effects on a tractor, look at most dash towers on Cub Cadet 149 and espically the 169.  Usualy cracked around the mounting bolts to the frame.  The Quietlines like the 1650 are better, but the mounts tend to go bad and the poor thing shakes itself apart.  HP comes into play with snowblowing, rototiller work ect.  Newer tractors have to be at rated RPM to make anything torque wise.  pull them down 50 rpm or so off 3600 and the torque falls way off.  Older engines did better with this.  Thats why you see a 22-25hp V twin in a lawn tractor that we used 8-16hp single cylinder engines in the past.  And those were garden tractors back then, able to do ground engaging work like a moldboard field plow.  Cant do that with your 25hp whatever today. A friend of mine has a nice Simplicity Broadmore, big V twin ect, and all he can do is mow and remove snow.  Where as my little 8hp Wheelhorse can rototill, pull a moldboard field plow, cultivators ect.  Even the early Wheel Horses with 4-6hp can do that!    With those bigger HP engines, comes a price and its in fuel consumption.  Those big 16hp single cylinder hood shakers love thier fuel, the flat twin Onan, Kohler and Briggs drink fuel like its going out of style.  But sound great doing it!   I went over to a single cylinder air cooled diesel, all the torque and way less fuel usage for the work being done.    Mike


The low trq,of the new engines is due to shorter strokes and lighter rotating assemblies. E.g aluminum flywheel
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#21 Mark 149 J. ONLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 11:53 AM

  First off, what a great discussion!  Secondly, I've only been in the hobby for 2 years so I'm still learning.  I hadn't worked on these type of motors other then a simple push mower engine before buying my Cub 149.  Because of this I decided to look over the specification of the Kohler K series of engines.  Here is what I've found out.  The 12, 14, and 16 hp motors have the same stroke of 3.25.  The cylinder bores are 3.375, 3.5, and 3.75.  The 12 hp uses a different crank then the 14 and 16 hp.  The 14 and 16 hp motor share the same crank.  It also appears that the valves are the same for the 14 and 16 hp engines but not the 12 hp.  I know that the 16 hp has more head bolts and the 14 and 16 hp motor have a larger carb. then the 12 hp motor. 

  If the only difference is the crank part number and the bore size but not the stroke there is very little differences in the actual engines.  It all comes down to what the tractor is going to be mostly used for.  If the engine is going to be used to drive a lot of attachments like a large deck or snow blower then having the extra horsepower will help get the work done faster and possible  make the engine last longer.  Regardless of engine size they are a lot of fun to use and collect and are a great way to spend good family time and create great memories.   

  One thing I looked for on the net but could not find is a torque and horsepower curve chart.  I think that would be interesting to see those differences on a chart. 


Edited by Mark 149 J., June 15, 2017 - 11:54 AM.

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#22 js5020 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 03:32 PM

Usually the larger HP machines of the same series have a few more features.  I have a 16HP WH "no name" along with the bigger price tag for the larger engine and standard hydro trans it came with hydraulic lift.  The smaller HP machines of the same series could have been purchased with the hydro but are manual lift.  If your lifting a deck or blade maybe its not a big deal, but a blower especially a 2 stage it is a welcomed option.


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#23 dodge trucker ONLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 05:14 PM

The more hp, the faster the GT can move while working. This shows up most with the snowblower and the mower in heavy grass. Good Luck, Rick

 

 

Correct, trq is how much work you can do. Hp is how fast you can do it.

 

 

not necessarily. I posted this earlier from work, on my d@mn phone and it didn't show up...

While I can see more power maybe allowing you to not bog down as  much in a given scenario  vs a smaller engine on the (otherwise) same setup, most of these engines are governed around 3600 RPM. and my Cub 1200 is geared the same as a Cub 1000, if I were to put a 16HP engine on my 1200, in 2nd gear at 3600 RPM,  will cruise at the same ground speed. there is the same amount of power lost thru the gear train/ regardless of  amount of power "available"... there is a point where "more power" doesn't do any more work.  and a point where you go from "laboring" to "loafing"  but the same work is getting done at the same speed.



#24 js5020 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 07:17 PM

Unless its a hydro and at that point you push the go lever/pedal further and go faster,,,,, your living in the limitations of gear drive.  Even with a hydro you can still only use so much engine before you break traction, break something, or smoke the attachment belt.


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#25 MH81 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 07:59 PM

not necessarily. I posted this earlier from work, on my d@mn phone and it didn't show up...
While I can see more power maybe allowing you to not bog down as much in a given scenario vs a smaller engine on the (otherwise) same setup, most of these engines are governed around 3600 RPM. and my Cub 1200 is geared the same as a Cub 1000, if I were to put a 16HP engine on my 1200, in 2nd gear at 3600 RPM, will cruise at the same ground speed. there is the same amount of power lost thru the gear train/ regardless of amount of power "available"... there is a point where "more power" doesn't do any more work. and a point where you go from "laboring" to "loafing" but the same work is getting done at the same speed.

I think what they meant was
That if I had to mow in low gear with 12 horse, I may be able to mow in 2nd or 3rd Gear with 16. That would be faster.
Being able to produce the same amount of work at the same quality only in a higher gear.

Edited by MH81, June 15, 2017 - 08:05 PM.

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#26 IHCubGuy OFFLINE  

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Posted June 15, 2017 - 08:48 PM

One thing to consider is that today's high vacuum mower decks do take more hp to run than our older decks. I can tell you that the 25hp Kohler in my Hustler will bog down running the 54" deck in higher grass.  And while I say that I will agree on the comment made earlier that the engines today have less rotating mass which makes a big difference in the torque and performance.  

 

I can give an instance where hp did make all the difference.  Mom and dad have a JD 318 with a 50" deck.  Now with just the deck the tractor has plenty of power.  However they also have a JD mcs for on the back of it as well.  That runs off of an electric clutch that comes off of the shaft coming out of the back of the hydrostat pump.  With that thing running and the deck running with most of their yard being on a hill that 18hp Onan ALWAYS had it's hands full to run it.  There was no overabundance of power to say the least and those Performer 18 engines were pretty torquey little things.  

 

Owning a 107 Cub Cadet I can tell you that even a 36" blower is too much for the K241 and the hydrostat pump.  A 147 would do a much better job and do it easier and probably more fuel efficient in the end by not having too work as hard.  Also having mowed a few years with a 70 with a K161 with a 38" deck and a number of years with a 100 with a K241 and the same deck or even later with a 42" deck the 100 did the work a LOT easier and it has a set of faster gears in the transmission than the 70 does and I mowed in 2nd gear with both.

 

Under edit:  Forgot to post a picture of a JD mcs for those that might not know what one looks like.  This one isn't mom and dad's but is the same tractor run unit.

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Edited by IHCubGuy, June 15, 2017 - 09:14 PM.

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#27 dodge trucker ONLINE  

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Posted June 16, 2017 - 05:50 PM

Unless its a hydro and at that point you push the go lever/pedal further and go faster,,,,, your living in the limitations of gear drive.  Even with a hydro you can still only use so much engine before you break traction, break something, or smoke the attachment belt.

I used a gear drive for illustration purposes... with the hydro lever at the same spot same scenario, ground speed will be the same with a 12hp as a 16hp running at the same RPM.



#28 dodge trucker ONLINE  

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Posted June 16, 2017 - 07:00 PM

Ok I decided to try and sell my engine-less roller and now I get a reply to an ad from another site for an engine to fill the hole at a reasonable price and it splits the difference between the other engines that I have come across (12hp) and what the tractor originally had, (16hp).
I got a guy with a couple of 14's that came from Cubs that he wants to sell.
I know that they made this same machine (1650) with a 12 and called it a 1250 and could have been had with the same extra bells and whistles that were standard w/a 16hp model. I've run 1250s without the lights and hyd lift and they are tough machines that will take a beating and just wondered how much I would or wouldn't notice the extra power of a 16 on the same machine, used predominantly as a mower.
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#29 Doug E. ONLINE  

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Posted June 17, 2017 - 12:21 PM

I have a Bolens G16xl with a snow blower that does a good job, but I have a large area to snowblow, and end up having to blow snow twice in some parts of the area I clear.  I have often wished for more horse power when the engine starts to bog down or to be able to toss the snow farther (or snowblow faster). 

 

My first tractor is a Bolens H14 tube frame, for which I only recently picked up a snowblower, and have not had the chance to try it out.  I use the H14 for tilling and mowing, for which it does a superb job, no complaints.  I will hang on to the tube frame as it is more maneuverable for these tasks then the medium frame or the large frame I have picked up.  I have not felt under powered for these tasks with the tube frame.  I have also used it with a moldboard plow, and it works well, but I would like to see how a larger HP tractor performs.  It feels like a bit more power would be desirable. 

 

I recently picked up a serviceable snowblower for a large frame, and am looking forward to seeing how a higher HP tractor does with it next winter.  Probably just means we will not have much snow!  While not related to the original question, I think I will prefer a hydro tranny for snowblowing over the gear tranny for being able to better match the ground speed to the snow conditions. 

 

I live in a snow belt, and snow removal is my prime concern and use for my garden tractors, and why I got my first one to begin with.  If it were not for the snow aspect, I could be quite happy with a Bolens 1256 or 1456 or a medium frame of the same HP.  Ergonomically, I do like the feel and weight of a large frame better, however. 

 

I am proceeding to make a 3 pt. for the large frame to be able to pull the plow.  I'll find out next spring the differences over the tube frame. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Regards,

 

Doug


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