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same tractor, bigger HP within the series?


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#1 dodge trucker ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 06:19 AM

If you have been playing with these machines very long, and if you have had (or even just worked on) more than 1 of a particular series/brand,  I'm sure you have seen that most tractors have come with many engine options on the same chassis, with the same attachments that will work among the different models in the series. Now I know I can't go down and buy a new CC quietline or an Ariens S series (using those as examples since those are what I have); but Sears, Deere, MTD-- they have all done this...  among IH... 109,129,149,169 same machine with different HP engines... and we all have some "Tim Taylor" in us..... ya know, "more power arrghhh".... 

but seriously if a CC 1250 will power a 50" deck just fine,  and propel the machine forwards and backwards, and do so at the same speeds as a 1650,(gearing and drive system ratios are all the same)  other than "bragging rights" what does the "extra power" get you?

now I know that there has to be a line drawn somewhere.... even though it would fit I don't think I'd put the 50" deck on a 109, a smaller deck would be more suitable unless you are mowing every other day like a golf course, where you aren't hardly throwing much for clippings/  and I certainly am not giving any credit for newer machines which are largely junk/ and companies have been sued over the  over-rating the power of their machines (who needs 20HP for a 42" deck when a 12HP will carry it just fine)  where a HP increase was just a peel and stick deal it seemed (so they don't deserve any credit for their "claimed" HP) 

 

I have a CC 1650 that is a ways away from getting its due garage time as it has to "wait its turn" but as I got it as a roller and am looking for a replacement engine as it awaits its turn, ya know, "get while the gettin's good"  for a better deal,  I have a 12hp here that may work to get the machine going, and am supposed to be gettin a 14 just like it soon. If either of these are drilled for the Kohler narrow base pan (another story) I could make either "work" (I have another pan as would be needed for the application "if" the block is prepped for it)  

and I know someone with a 1250 on which I have plenty of seat time that does what is asked of it "just fine" and IDK that for what it is used for, that the extra 4hp would really be "noticed" 

 

again just using the machines that I have and those that I typically work with here..... but within a given series  how much power is "enough" for normal use on a given chassis?


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#2 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 06:28 AM

With Sears, I notice the extra ponies with the snow blower and the plow.
With an 8, I can pull a 10" plow, but I know I shouldn't. The 12 is perfect. 5th gear and go.
The 16 isn't needed for the plow, but it's nice to have that and more for the blowers to really eat snow.

The 16 I do use for mowing. I have a situation that I need to brushhog 4-5 times a year and it's so soft that the only thing that'll go thru usually is the 16 with chains. Even got it stuck this monsoon season.
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#3 LilysDad ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 06:30 AM

. . .but within a given series  how much power is "enough" for normal use on a given chassis?

 

It seems to me there are an awful lot of 12HP Wheel Horse around compared to other choices.


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#4 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 06:58 AM

My Cub 108 has a 48" deck with a 10 HP Kohler. Does a good job as long as the grass isn't too tall. Usually go in 2nd gear.


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#5 chieffan ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 07:09 AM

A lot depends on the tractor frame.  How much torquing will a frame take before it starts to crack with the larger engines.  Most never notice the torquing effect.  When the engine is turning at 3K + and the resistance at the wheels increase, something in between has to start giving.  Sooner or later that "giving" will show up as cracks in the frame.  Largest engine I have is 16hp, a Briggs and an Onan.  Both are in Bolens Medium frame tractors which are know to be heavier built than most of the others.


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#6 js5020 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 07:11 AM

12HP does seem to be the "sweet spot" for our little machines, a happy medium between power and fuel consumption for most tasks asked of them.  However if you do a lot of snow blowing and/or prefer to wait till its all over despite the final accumulation totals 16HP + is greatly appreciated.  Only once in 4 yrs have I used/needed the K341 power and it was this winter when we got  24" of the white dirt and the blower was asking for more on the first pass, other than 12HP would work fine for me.  Oh and I do like the hydraulics that came on the 16HP WH.


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#7 Arti OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 07:12 AM

Just my .00002 cents worth.

Seems to me a Hydro vs a gear drive needs an extra hp or 2.  If the area is hilly or steep then 2 extra ponies are nice.

Snow blowing is the biggest Power use that I have however 16 hp seems to work well however 12 is far better than a shovel.

Up hill with heavy grass 14 is welcome in my hilly yard.

With that said a good 10 hp Kohler would handle all these jobs but not as quickly as 2 more hp would.

As far as the new 22 hp machines go I don't think they would measure up to an older 16 hp machine.

 

I guess it depends on what you want to use the machine for, the terrain and how quickly you want to get the job done.


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#8 SimplyRad OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 08:54 AM

We don't seem to get very much snow here lately so can't talk about that aspect. I have mowed 5' tall weeds with my 10 horse brigs but you have to move slow and my ZT is 22 horse and it will bog down if I let my grass get very high, set up as a mulcher, if the cover is off no problem. Wife says I can't take the ZT to the woods to mow the shooting lanes so this year I will see what the 7112 6 speed will do on the weeds.


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#9 chieffan ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 10:01 AM

We don't seem to get very much snow here lately so can't talk about that aspect. I have mowed 5' tall weeds with my 10 horse brigs but you have to move slow and my ZT is 22 horse and it will bog down if I let my grass get very high, set up as a mulcher, if the cover is off no problem. Wife says I can't take the ZT to the woods to mow the shooting lanes so this year I will see what the 7112 6 speed will do on the weeds.

That is what they make a bar mower for.  2 wheel walk behind works great.



#10 SimplyRad OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 10:15 AM

That is what they make a bar mower for.  2 wheel walk behind works great.

When the are made of unobtainimum you use what you have.



#11 Bud W ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 11:13 AM

I have two 1256 Bolens, one has the original Wisconsin TRA12 D and the other has a Briggs Vangard 14 hp v twin. The OHV Briggs is much smoother and obviously has more power. With the same mower deck I very much prefer mowing with the Briggs power.


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#12 EricFromPa OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 02:57 PM

As far as the new 22 hp machines go I don't think they would measure up to an older 16 hp machine.

 

 

 

My CC 582 with 16hp Briggs Opposed twin grunts pretty good with the 44C deck in high grass but you can't stall the mower out even in tall field grass. But it does pull the engine down considerably.

My old Cub Cadet 149 with 14hp Kohler had an old 48" square end deck. It did not pull the engine down nearly as much (in the same field) as the smaller 44C deck does on my 582.

 

This briggs has just over 300 hours on it so it's still quite healthy.

K series Kohler torque has more Torque at idle than my Briggs has at WOT. Even though the torque ratings are close up to 2400rpm the Briggs looses a considerable amount of torque at WOT.

 

Also some decks do take more power to run. IH built 50C deck needs more power than a Haban 60" deck. My uncle had a 50C on his Cub 1872 and found a 60H for it that needed a bit of work but he says the Haban deck doesn't make it grunt nearly as bad.


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#13 shorty ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 04:50 PM

I find that using the same attachments, mower and tiller, on a tractor with more hp gives an advantage. When the K341 got pulled down, the end result was not as nice. With the M18, I can till a little deeper n faster. Mowing tall stuff it has more grunt before the blades start slowing.
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#14 boyscout862 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 05:53 PM

The more hp, the faster the GT can move while working. This shows up most with the snowblower and the mower in heavy grass. Good Luck, Rick
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#15 Tecumseh power ONLINE  

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Posted June 14, 2017 - 09:24 PM

The more hp, the faster the GT can move while working. This shows up most with the snowblower and the mower in heavy grass. Good Luck, Rick


Correct, trq is how much work you can do. Hp is how fast you can do it.

Edited by Tecumseh power, June 14, 2017 - 09:24 PM.

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