Jump to content

Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

PTO clutch electrical question


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 20, 2017 - 06:34 PM

doing an engine transplant on an LT. vertical shaft, has a tether strap to keep clutch from spinning.

The electrical plug only has 2 terminals. someone has crudely repaired the wiring right at the plug's terminals, wires are bare far enough behind the plug that they could short out. (not any more, I repaired them right and added heat shrink/no more possibile short.)

 

Here is the problem/ there is a 3rd wire with a frazzled end, that, unlike the other 2 wires, was dangling in the wind, no obvious place for it to go. White wire, apparently supposed to be a ground to something in theat area.  there is no evidence of this 3rd wire ever having been connected to the clutch housing  or mower frame or anything in the area. The way the harness is made, it looks like this wire belongs in the area. If it were supposed to go to the clutch housing I would expect a rivet or partial ring terminal still connected to the clutch if this wire somehow ripped loose at some point in the tractor's life..

Tether strap hooks onto opposite side of engine/frame and clutch. looks like the only possible place a ground could possibly connect to, but I don't think they'd run it across the bottom of the engine, like they'd have been better off to drop a ground from that side of the engine.... too much possibility of it getting wound in the clutch or belts if they did.... I do not see any safety switches in the area that it could have come from, either.

 

There is a sticker on the clutch, with (I assume) the model number of the clutch.. 

WARNER MAG STOP MSS-60LC   then under that; 5217-2

 

does this clutch housing have to be separately grounded for the clutch to work? I'd think it would ground itself via the engine crankshaft when engaged....



#2 glgrumpy ONLINE  

glgrumpy

    Getting Out!

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8360
  • 8,094 Thanks
  • 7,538 posts
  • Location: Huntington, IN 46750 North East in State

Posted May 20, 2017 - 07:26 PM

Would think two wire plug would be hot and the ground to operate. Says mag brake, could there be two hot wires and the other sends signal to it for a brake to stop quicker?  The white is ground?  or maybe white is for that or safety switch circuit?  New rigs are much more complicated to figure out w/out some diagrams at least. Did you try juice on any wires just to see if it clicks? Would think if white is ground, you could put on ring end and slip it under a mount bolt for the clutch??


  • dodge trucker said thank you

#3 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 20, 2017 - 07:52 PM

there are no mount bolts except the one in the end of crank and,as I said earlier, there is a tether strap on the right side (from sitting in seat position), wiring plug on left.   I see nothing at all to indicate that this wire broke free from housing, you'd think there'd be a asta  witness mark of some sort... if not a screw or rivet on that side of the clutch housing near where the wire is dangling...


Edited by dodge trucker, May 20, 2017 - 07:53 PM.


#4 jms180 OFFLINE  

jms180

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1266
  • 1,215 Thanks
  • 1,401 posts
  • Location: Harvest Alabama

Posted May 20, 2017 - 08:37 PM

PTO only has 2 wires one positive 12 volts and one negative 12 volts which is ground.



#5 larrybl OFFLINE  

larrybl

    Texas Member

  • Site Supporter
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 415
  • 6,368 Thanks
  • 4,078 posts
  • Location: Central Texas

Posted May 20, 2017 - 09:21 PM

All my clutches are two wire. Any possibility of tracking a model number and snagging a wire diagram?


  • dodge trucker said thank you

#6 olcowhand OFFLINE  

olcowhand

    Red Tractor Nut & Diesel Addict

  • Staff Admin
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Sponsor
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 20
  • 38,021 Thanks
  • 30,441 posts
  • Location: South Central Kentucky

Posted May 20, 2017 - 10:01 PM

Only the pto clutches that have the electromagnet section bolted directly to the engine block have a single hot wire.  ALL the "floating" clutches require the 2 wires....hot and ground.



#7 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 20, 2017 - 11:00 PM

Ok, 3rd attempt at a reply now on my stupid phone, not gonna be happenin this way very much.... My tower has taken to blacking out when it feels like, meaning that I lose whatever I might be working on at the moment...
There's​ a wire diagram in the Ariens forum in the recent " brought another one home" thread thanks to Kenny,. Looks like the. 2 wires it calls for are there. This stray white I bundled right with the other 2. Tape job looks factory. Nothing in the area that looks like it's missing a wire. There's 4 whites that bolt to the base of the engine along with the neg battery cable.... I guess I hook up what I can and see if anything doesn't work? All back together except for putting that clutch back on, battery in and figure out how to bolt on this plate that looks like some kind of firewall and hood support, replacement engine doesn't have the holes for it like the original engine did.
Same hp, same brand, about 4 years difference in age of the old and new engines, same engine family but went from a Formula to an Enduro style. Block looks identical under the sheet metal but the sheet metal is a little different between them....

#8 GWest OFFLINE  

GWest

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 130
  • 512 Thanks
  • 464 posts

Posted May 21, 2017 - 05:40 AM

You do not want a crankshaft to provide a ground. It will burn at every point of contact including the bearings.

 

Years ago we had a new K5 Chev 4x4 Blazer go out and come back within 100 miles with an excessive noise complaint. Turned out the battery to engine ground cable was bad. It burnt every bearing in the U-joints, front and rear differentials, transmission, transfer case and wheel bearings. The shocks were the electrical link between the engine and the chassis and they were leaking. Don't know how they did it but the radio quit once all 4 were removed. Won't forget that one.

 

Garry


Edited by GWest, May 21, 2017 - 05:45 AM.

  • dodge trucker said thank you

#9 daniel_b OFFLINE  

daniel_b
  • Member
  • Member No: 65956
  • 94 Thanks
  • 89 posts
  • Location: mid-atlantic

Posted May 22, 2017 - 11:35 AM

 
QUOTE, post 1
...White wire, apparently supposed to be a ground to something in theat area...
 
maybe confusing AC electical with "Lo-voltage" DC electric???
color.......AC...........DC
black.......line.........ground
white.......neutral....power
green......ground.... -
from Here:
 
 
this pic, clipboard_clutch.gif
 
got from a manual of a "newer" mower I have, uses red and black.
No biggie on the colors, but you really need some kind of manual to figure WHERE the wires COME from, and, GO to, (with all the safety switches used on these newer contraptions).
I still haven't figured out WHAT the "operator presence relay" thingy is, it's NOT the seat switch though, don't really matter right now, it works, so...   :rocker2:
 
You might re-check the PTO switch itself  and the clutch/brake pedal switch really good to make sure they have their wires on, they're in that area, (at least on mine).
 
Also, on mine,
1) with tractor running -
I can put the brake on, 
WITHOUT the PTO engaged, 
and get off the tractor without it shutting off
2) BUT, if I've engaged the PTO, all bets are off, and it does shut off  
 
 
Other thought, most parts things anymore are NOT specific to that exact product. What I'm meaning by that is that wiring harness may fit a number of different models, and just hook up whatever wires are needed in that particular application... :poke:
 
hope something in the above has helped?
 


#10 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 22, 2017 - 05:47 PM

clutch/brake switch is nowhere near where this random wire is hanging, the 2 wires that need to go to the PTO are there.... this mystery wire is bundled with them though.



#11 Canawler OFFLINE  

Canawler

    Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1273
  • 1,939 Thanks
  • 1,799 posts
  • Location: York, PA

Posted May 22, 2017 - 06:22 PM

Any chance the extra wire went to the headlights? The reason I ask is because on one of my tractors the headlight wire is bundled with the PTO clutch wires.

Edited by Canawler, May 22, 2017 - 06:23 PM.


#12 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 22, 2017 - 08:18 PM

There's a separate leg of the harness that goes to them, and they do work. I mowed my yard with it a couple hours ago and noticed 2 things/
It has a battery light like a car (charge indicator I think) that's bright with key on/engine not running but stays lit dimly like on the 70s and 80s GM'S had a bad diode trio in the alternator, and/
The engine fires right up but as it runs it acts like it runs out of gas randomly it acts just like it is vapor locking. Bit the choke and it coughs a bit then smooths out just before it quits like I said just like it is running out of fuel. Then with about 30-45 seconds of grinding on it and only if you flood it it will cough to life let off the choke and it smooths right out and runs fine til the next episode, which recurs more frequently the longer I try to run it. I finished the yard and drove it back to the garage and sat on it a while (I hate seat switches) and it vapor locked every couple of minutes by then even with no load on it, sitting still

#13 daniel_b OFFLINE  

daniel_b
  • Member
  • Member No: 65956
  • 94 Thanks
  • 89 posts
  • Location: mid-atlantic

Posted May 22, 2017 - 09:28 PM

does this piece of equipment have the fuel shut-off solenoid on it?, is it hooked up/wire to it?



#14 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 23, 2017 - 05:59 AM

no, no solenoid on carb.... it has the plastic square looking one that Tech used most recently before they went belly up with a brand new bowl/float/seat assembly.

and when I bought that replacement bowl assy a couple years ago, I bought the genuine Tecumseh version not the knockoff,

I ran the engine for a few minutes back when I installed it, then drained the carb completely, engine has been sitting since with no gas in it at all,  only working as a dust collector and trip hazard until I found this machine to install it onto. when it runs it runs awesome...I think I might rig up a temporary tank (gravity fed) and unhook the fuel pump and see if it acts up that way.

I do not believe that the mystery wire has anything to do with the running condition, since the engine has a magneto ignition/ but may have something to do with the battery light condition.


Edited by dodge trucker, May 23, 2017 - 06:10 AM.


#15 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 1,882 Thanks
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 23, 2017 - 06:12 AM

All my clutches are two wire. Any possibility of tracking a model number and snagging a wire diagram?

there is one in the "brought another one home" thread under Ariens heading but I can't see where this ground would go from that, the 2 that are called out for the clutch are there and intact....






Top