Jump to content

Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

steering issue on S16h


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted April 25, 2017 - 09:55 PM

I looked thru the Ariens forum and most all I could find was either converting to power steering or else threads on the NH tilt setup but nothing on what I have to fix at the moment. tractor model 931018.

 

I got this unit last fall, and right away put it on my trailer and threw a tarp over it for "later". 

found it on CL the next town over, not running, absolutely no attachments and the steering is seized. stuck very close to straight ahead. Turns out the seller knew me when I went for a look.... He wanted a whole lot more for it than I offered, knowing it wouldn't run. I have since gotten it running, engine sounds strong but does need a little work yet. more on that later.

 

anyway for now the steering. Grab the wheel and it seems to "want to" turn, but can't. I took the front axle clean out of the machine, have to replace the PTO bearings anyhow. spindles rotate freely.

I then took the steering link off that hangs down behind the footrest, still stuck. It appears to be the flange bearing where the shaft that the "vertical link" attaches to, passes thru the frame.

How can I get the cam and shaft out of the frame, so I can replace the flange bearing? It is connected by the nut and adjuster for steering box play,  but even taking that off, with it being seized in the bearing, I do not think it will slide outwards away from the gearbox. meaning that something may need to be torched in order to get it apart, and while i do have a partial "parts" tractor here that still has all the steering parts with it that I'll need, the steering gear on this machine seems better than the one on the parts unit if only because the one on the parts unit has no bearing/bushing between the tube and the shaft at the top of the column....

also being that what I am calling the "steering cam" connects to the steering box by way of the steering box "play" adjusting bolt, I apparently couldn't do the "steering improvement" as can be done on most Ross steering boxes, with the cam taking up the spot where the 2nd (inner) jam nut would be on, say, a Cub?  I guess I'd have to have someone custom make me a longer steering gear adjustment screw to make space for the thrust bearing, it appears.

 

 

 



#2 shorty ONLINE  

shorty

    Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 6172
  • 4,987 Thanks
  • 5,036 posts
  • Location: Lancaster County Pa

Posted April 26, 2017 - 05:15 AM

I haven't had any trouble in the steering and no experience in working on it. The lower the model number, the older and less complicated they were.
  • dodge trucker said thank you

#3 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted April 26, 2017 - 06:19 AM

I have no idea how long this machine has been sitting. I have 3 of these machines (4, if you count the parts unit that has little left on it but "bones"..)If the idiot that I got the parts unit from hadn't have butchered the frame, I'd consider swapping everything needed from this unit to that one.  ( I know that the guy that I got the one with the seized steering from, did not have it long// he supposedly got it from his father in law, and claimed to not know much about it....) when I 1st looked at it, we took a jumper battery out to his yard where it sat and tried to jump it and discovered the engine was not stuck, and it has decent compression... but would not fire.  I wound up replacing everything in the ignition system due to rust/corrosion to get it to run, due to some hacked up wiring, I unhooked the ignition switch and started it with jumper cables direct to the starter and a jumper from the + side jumper cable clamp to the coil for ignition system power.... but it does run and sounds strong, no smoke and so far it appears (surprisingly) that I won't even have to pull the carb and boil it....



#4 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted April 26, 2017 - 05:04 PM

well, looks like no other choice... my torch tanks are empty courtesy of my son so I guess I get the sawzall out and cut that cross shaft so that I can get it out..... and hope that the one on the parts tractor unbolts and comes apart..... was not wanting to do that.



#5 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 06, 2017 - 06:07 PM

been a couple weeks, took the dash out today, Dremel got a workout cutting carriage bolts that would spin,  got the steering out, as I figured I had to Sawzall the shaft off the steering box that goes thru the right side of frame, wound up that the flange bearing that supports that shaft at the frame was locked up... got everything off the parts unit, flange bearing on that one was a bit stiff too, once I had the unit out of the tractor. Put it in a vise and drilled a small hole in the bearing "seal" and soaked it in ATF and then tried to get some 80w90 in there,  was a spot where it bound up, and had some "crunch-crunch" going on, but it works free now. Would like to replace that bearing but since it only ever moves in an arc about maybe 45* or so in actual service,, should be OK..... if I keep this machine, it will definitely need to be taken down to bare nothings, sandblasted and repainted from the ground up anyways... will deal with finding a new bearing then.... hole I put in the side seal is on the side that is sandwiched against the frame anyways, so shouldn't get much crud inside until then....

Having to build one steering box from the 2 steering boxes.

Upon getting the steering wheel off, I used a bearing seperator from my press and my bolt grip puller (what you'd use for a car steering wheel or a harmonic balancer)  with the pusher screw on the slightly loosened steering whee nut. Problem was there was so dang little "extra" thread to be able to leave the nut flush to protect the threads so I wound up having to take that off so the wheel would have any room to "pop" when the puller did its job.... ended up mushrooming the threads/ I did not know that the steering shaft itself was hollow either.   the parts one came to me with the steering wheel already pulled and in good shape.

I got inside of them, and the one with good threads on the shaft had a broken race on the lower bearing. so  will wind up with 1 good steering column/box out of the 2.... this is my 1st time inside of a Ross steering box. not as much to them as I thought....

I have seen pix of the worm on the steering shaft on here before, but having rebuilt ones from a truck before I was expecting ball bearings to fall out upon getting the side plate off.... but no. and the "parts tractor" steering unit was missing the bearing/bushing from the top of the steering tube. Both of them were full of water when I tipped them upside down upon getting them out of the tractors.....  

and I am going to be able to do the thrust bearing thing for the e-z steering, the double nuts that hold the steering shaft in are on the other side of the steering box housing, which I could not see til I got everything apart. I was thinking I wasn't gonna be able to.

this will be my 1st time trying that mod.

 

and then it's on to pulling the front axle out of the parts machine as the PTO shaft bearings were beyond "shot" on this tractor too, there were NO bearing balls left at all on the inside bearing (closest to the middle of the tractor). I already have that all apart on the machine that I am trying to get going, front of frame sitting on chunk of tree stump.

 

I am beginning to wonder if this one I am trying to get running again wasn't completely under water at some point...... it definitely has been sitting outside, unused for a very long time, though I was quite surprised at how clean the engine oil was when I got it.... and not overfull either.  I might start a new thread on this machine once I get past the steering problem....  I did get the engine running either last weekend or the one before, I talked about that in another thread somewhere else.

 

edit/ went and re read what I put up a couple weeks ago and found  I had already said some of what I did here so I deleted that part of this one...


Edited by dodge trucker, May 06, 2017 - 06:11 PM.

  • KennyP said thank you

#6 Billy M OFFLINE  

Billy M
  • Senior Member
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 15999
  • 621 Thanks
  • 534 posts
  • Location: Carlisle, OH

Posted May 06, 2017 - 08:42 PM

The 1st Ariens I got (GT18) sat outside about 4 or 5 years and was in surprisingly good mechanical shape. I think he gas tank and the carb had the most water in them. Although it's the ugliest one I have, it's the one I mow with every week. I re-ringed the K361 OHV 18HP and it runs like a champ.

As far as your steering goes. I agree...if you get the steering bearing at the frame moving freely and get some lube in there, it will probably last. It doesn't have much range of motion.

Of all my tractors, the steering boxes are all good. I do have a couple with some play in the front axle tube, but not enough to make me want to fix them. I haven't had to tear down a steering tube/box yet, but I do have a spare.

I put Torrington bearings on my spindles to decrease some resistance in the steering system and make it steer easier. I would assume the steering box likes that too.
  • dodge trucker said thank you

#7 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 06, 2017 - 10:02 PM

wellll another update. 

The NICE 605bearing WON'T work on his unit as it is for a 5/8" stub, and this machine has a 3/4"...

I got "a" steering box put together for it, with a mix match of parts from 2 identical ones I have here,  plus some brand new plastic cages and ball bearings I had here already, originally destined for a different unit...took the better of the 2 worm adjustment screws to the bench grinder and got the worn flats ground out of it, and back in place... all regreased up, and it turns good now. Just got the steering gear back in, and all bolted up, wanted to have the dash tower all back on too until I had a buddy stop by, work slowed down then....

 

I had no choice but to do the axle tube, with that one bearing being so "shot" and the flange retainer was even cracked in half.... I have never seen a PTO shaft pulley with THIS much slop in it...

it looks like the bearing that seized up on the steering shaft is the same as the 2 on the front axle tube/PTO shaft... I still have 1 that seems OK from the axle tube,  being that the companion one was so "shot" IDK that I'd want to put it back in that spot but it might have made a good one for the steering to replace the seized one if I'd have paid attention while I was taking everything apart.... I just rediscovered the "good or at least "not AS bad" axle tube bearing on my trailer under the tractor as I was putting the steering back into the one that I am fixing up....

As with the steering setup, I am going to take the axle tube and related parts from the "parts" tractor, that I got a couple of weeks before I wound up with this one that I am currently working on.

 

Now the next challenge will be electrical/ I got the engine running by jumper cables directly to the starter and a jumper from there to the + side of the coil... more Scotchloks on this thing than on some mickey mouse trailer light wiring jobs I have seen, terminals on the ign switch are quite crusty, as are the ones on the regulator, and as was the points condenser and coil... 

I was hoping to have this one running/driving on its own power this weekend but no... got a "buddy with a pickup truck" kind of job to do tomorrow, and I gotta go out to said buddy's place and play with a finicky Cub 1250 so he can mow his yard.... and probably ride around on my New Holland a while and help him get that done....


Edited by dodge trucker, May 06, 2017 - 10:03 PM.

  • KennyP said thank you

#8 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 13, 2017 - 10:07 PM

Well/ I planned to finish reassembly today of the S16h, but have a delay. I thought that I had gotten a couple of bearing flanges, another tube, and shaft with the box of parts that I got when I got my GT19, but I can't find it.... found the box, alright/ but there was only 1 bearing in the box, that stuff must have gotten separated out somehow when it found its way into the attic...

I had to weld up one of the original bearing retainer flanges since I could not find the extras that I thought that I had.

One of the original steering tube/PTO shaft bearings felt fine, no roughness, no slop; but being as bad as the other bearing disintigrated, I don't feel comfortable using it, so I got the numbers from it and went to Motion Industries this morning to get new ones....

when did they STOP being open til noon on Saturdays???? that was a wasted trip.  That sucks/ they are only open now 7 to 4 M-F... I work 7:30-4, M-F but 35 miles away, which would mean me having to "play sick" to be able to do business there....

I found someone on FeeBay with a pair of them, for barely more than what Motion's website price is.... but now I gotta just wait for them to get here.

 

and; I removed the axle and tube from my "parts" Ariens with the thought to just swap it over, and though it looks like it would bolt in, the axle tube and bearing stuff is a completely different design.... both are S-16H's,  I cannot determine the model number of the parts one because of some creative "torch work" by the past owner of the parts unit.... but the one on the one I am fixing up, does look the same as what is on my New Holland; the S-16h is a 77 or 78 by the model number, while the NH S-14 is a '72 model. Weird. the parts one has a splined pulley and only held on by 1 flange at the front of the tractor, while the one I am fixing has 2 of these bearings, has a smooth shaft with a Woodruff key  where the pulley rides/ though both have a snap ring ahead of the pulley.

the unit off the parts one must have a bushing or needle bearing inside the axle tube, because that one only has 1 flange bearing on it.... yet it doesn't wobble and spins quite smoothly,  with only 1 bearing for support I'd expect it to wobble.... the one that is supposed to have 2 bearings sure did with one of the bearings having been "shot" and missing all of its bearing balls....

 

and yes, these bearings are the same as on that steering stub shaft that was locked up tight initially on this tractor. The one on my parts unit was stiff and cracked/popped as I spun it until I freed it up.... I think I will put this old axle tube bearing that is still "good" on, in place of that freed up one from the parts unit. The steering stub shaft bearing is the same between all of my tractors despite the differences in teh axle tube bearings. 

 

In case anyone is interested/ the bearing is a Fafnir brand, PN RA100RR,,, a RA100NPP is listed as the same and they come with the tapered lock collar too.  Motion lists them for $20/ea, I got 2 for 25 and they were in very old looking original boxes.... most I see on Ebay are around $14-15 each.... I am sure that is cheaper than direct from Ariens.

 

My wife is starting to get onto my nerves about getting rid of some of my "junk".... I'm trying the "subtraction by addition"  if you get what I mean.... trying to get everything from the "parts" unit that I need to complete this tractor before scrapping it...

so since I couldn't finish this one today I went for a ~150 mile ride to pick up an Ariens LT so that I can make use of a good vertical shaft tecumseh that has been demoted to "door stop/tripping hazard" that I bought for something else a few years ago and wound up not being able to use as intended because of how the exhaust comes out the bottom of the head.... so I found a machine with the same engine only "dead"  so now that engine won't be laying around any more... so see? I guess I am making progress cleaning up around here. slow yeah... but better than nothing.



#9 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 13, 2017 - 10:11 PM

oh yeah.... if you guys can make sense of my last post, I have to add that despite the differences in axle tube/bearing designs, the axles themselves between these 2 tractors ARE identical.


  • shorty said thank you

#10 shorty ONLINE  

shorty

    Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 6172
  • 4,987 Thanks
  • 5,036 posts
  • Location: Lancaster County Pa

Posted May 14, 2017 - 05:28 AM

Yup, I understand. Touched all those parts yesterday. Not the most enjoyable area of the tractor to work on. My shoulders ache this morning from being underneath. My '75 had the splined pulley and the '86 had the key. I put the splined pulley and shaft over on the '86. Bent the shaft on the '86 somehow.

#11 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 14, 2017 - 07:38 AM

bent the shaft? HOW?   it's a 1" solid shaft and not very long for leverage.... and that is the one with 2 flange bearings that bent? there alot of support not far from either end of that shaft, I'd think something would bust before that shaft would bend considering how it is designed.

 

On mine I am just glad that the axle tube isn't eaten away/wallowed out from that bearing failure.



#12 shorty ONLINE  

shorty

    Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 6172
  • 4,987 Thanks
  • 5,036 posts
  • Location: Lancaster County Pa

Posted May 14, 2017 - 11:00 AM

0513171314.jpg
I haven't figured out the whole thing yet.

#13 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 14, 2017 - 03:39 PM

looks gouged right at the bend/  weird



#14 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 15, 2017 - 04:51 PM

well got my bearings for my PTO shaft today... $31 and change to my door... just won the auction for them Saturday

how can something get here to NE IL in 2 days from Kent WA and I have to wait a week sometimes more to get something from Indiana or Iowa?



#15 dodge trucker ONLINE  

dodge trucker
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 19314
  • 2,137 Thanks
  • 2,857 posts
  • Location: kankakee

Posted May 16, 2017 - 09:43 PM

back together now with the front PTO shaft/axle tube.... good thing that I have an Ariens service manual, I'd forgotten the order in which all the spacers and such were supposed to go back together.... with new bearings and everything tightened up, grab the pto pulley and have just so slight side to side play... must be the bearings themselves moving in the retainers... spins nice and free, and about 99-1/2% of the slop is gone... but I also have slight front/back play in the axle itself.... maybe a little wear on the tube? Didn't look like it.

 

did decide to pull the steering box back out since I hadn't put the dash tower back on yet and put that "good" axle tube bearing that I had left, in there.... the one on that stub that pokes thru the frame was crunching and binding again.... I couldn't get the locking collar off so I put it in the press and had to crank with both hands on the press jack before it moved with a loud POP!!  the 1st 3 times I got it to move on there it popped like that....too dark to work, down to flashlight-in-mouth so time to hang it up for now...

got a piece of 1/4" steel brake line to make a replacement fuel line out of as I put it back together...

 

got a question on that voltage regulator/ it has the old style one that looks like an engine head, aluminum with huge fins and badly rusted terminals/ I have a couple of newer style Kohler ones, the ones that were often bolted to the shroud that I want to swap in/ the plug on this tractor has 3 wires in an "L" shaped connector; the newer style is 3 in a row side X side... which wire on the L shaped connector would switch to which terminal on the sideXsideXside connector?






Top