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1456 H14 PTO shaft not used in 25 years frozen in place will not engage


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#1 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2017 - 06:13 PM

Hey Guys got a problem with the PTO,

 

There has not been a shaft driven attachment run on this H14 from what I can piece together from the previous owners for at least twenty five years. I got the tractor with no attachments, the two previous owners never had any when they owner the tractor, they just used it to pull things around the yard. I picked up a rototiller for it this winter and would like to use it this spring. I sprayed the shaft with PB blaster and tapped the idler pulley arm back and forth and was finally able to get it to move. then I used a 9/16 wrench on the idler pulley bolt and nut to begin to work it back and forth. It is still extremely stiff but does move. The small shaft moves in side of the outer shaft at the pulleys, but what about this spring at the handle end supposed to do how is that supposed to function. I need some help understanding, I don't think everything is moving as it should at this point. I am sending some pictures so you can maybe help me with this problem.

 

Thanks  Stephen

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#2 29 Chev OFFLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2017 - 07:05 PM

I am guessing that the shaft is seized inside the pivot block ahead of the spring at the rear from sitting all those years - does the block turn on the shaft?  If you check out this thread on my 1053 I am working on it will give you a better idea of how the pivot becomes seized and how the spring functions with it starting at post # 95 - http://gardentractor...-project/page-7  (older style but same basic principle) .  The pivot should rotate on the shaft and as you engage the PTO lever it causes the pivot to rotate and makes the spring apply tension to rotate the inner shaft and force the idler pulley against the PTO belts.  The block on my 1053 had a hole where the spring for the PTO handle fit in that went through to the inner shaft - if your block has a similar hole you can put some penetrating oil down it.  The pivot blocks can become rusted badly to the shaft and often require heat to get them to move - if you try and use heat be very careful as you can easily melt the nylon bushings that the shaft turns in or set something on fire.


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#3 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2017 - 07:56 PM

Thanks 29 Chevy,

that was very helpful. The pivot block does not move on the shaft, I am hoping I don't need to remove the whole assembly to get it to work properly.

 

Stephen


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#4 29 Chev OFFLINE  

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Posted February 25, 2017 - 08:12 PM

Thanks 29 Chevy,

that was very helpful. The pivot block does not move on the shaft, I am hoping I don't need to remove the whole assembly to get it to work properly.

 

Stephen

I hope you can get it to move as well - if the tractor has not sat outside it may not be stuck that bad.  If you had access to an electric induction heater you could try heating the pivot that way and place a cold water soaked rag over the nylon bushing to keep it cool.  You could also try a product like this - http://www.na.henkel...d=8797940809729 but the problem is the pivot block is so long that if it is seized very bad the freeze release action may not work deep enough from front to back.  Good luck.


Edited by 29 Chev, February 25, 2017 - 08:56 PM.

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#5 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2017 - 08:27 AM

Probably best to remove the whole shaft assembly so it is out where you can get at it.  They are tucked away when mounted and hard to get much done.  Replace the belt pulley as they are available.  Some times you win, some times you don't.  Hopefully you can win this round.  Good luck.


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#6 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2017 - 03:17 PM

I have decided to remove the whole shaft assembly its just to tight to get any torque on the pivot block, so I will remove it and rebuild it. Do I need to remove the battery box or is there a way to snake it out without a complete disassembly.

 

let me know what you think,  Stephen



#7 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2017 - 06:43 PM

Ok Guys here is where the project is at this point. I took chieffan's advise and removed the PTO shaft and steering wheel. The shaft assembly really needs to be rebuilt, the steering shaft and pinion gear need to be rebuilt. This is my working tractor so I am not looking to restore it at this time but the parts of the tractor I take out and rebuild will be restored and painted so that at a later date I will not need to do it again. It looks like the pinion gear is softer then the steering gear any thoughts on do they need to be replaced as a set? I don't know if all these bearings and bushings are available There does not seem to be a bearing at the bottom of the steering shaft the parts break down shows one at the top and a flat washer at the bottom between the casing and the pinion gear. There is a lot of slop between the bottom casing and the steering shaft there is no flat washer, I don't know if it wore out and is gone or what. I would think there should be a bottom bearing on the steering shaft. This has turned into a bigger project then I wanted to do but after forty two years I guess it is expected. 

 

 Let me know what you think,  there is no where to add pictures, How come I can't add more pictures do I need to start a new topic?

 

Stephen


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#8 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2017 - 06:46 PM

Ok Guys here is where the project is at this point. I took chieffan's advise and removed the PTO shaft and steering wheel. The shaft assembly really needs to be rebuilt, the steering shaft and pinion gear need to be rebuilt. This is my working tractor so I am not looking to restore it at this time but the parts of the tractor I take out and rebuild will be restored and painted so that at a later date I will not need to do it again. It looks like the pinion gear is softer then the steering gear any thoughts on do they need to be replaced as a set? I don't know if all these bearings and bushings are available There does not seem to be a bearing at the bottom of the steering shaft the parts break down shows one at the top and a flat washer at the bottom between the casing and the pinion gear. There is a lot of slop between the bottom casing and the steering shaft there is no flat washer, I don't know if it wore out and is gone or what. I would think there should be a bottom bearing on the steering shaft. This has turned into a bigger project then I wanted to do but after forty two years I guess it is expected. 

 

 Let me know what you think,  there is no where to add pictures, How come I can't add more pictures do I need to start a new topic?

 

Stephen

Make another post and add the pics! Be sure to hit the "More Reply Options" button.


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#9 29 Chev OFFLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2017 - 06:48 PM

To add pictures click the "More Reply Options" button at the bottom right corner of the reply to topic box.

 

On my 1050's and 1053 there is no bushing at the lower end of the shaft - just a grease fitting in the base of the steering column that is usually missed when the tractors are being lubricated as a lot of people do not know they are there.  If you can post pictures that will help us see what you are up against. 


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#10 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 26, 2017 - 07:46 PM

Here are the pictures, like I said in the last post the flat washer is missing and there is a lot of slop at the lower end of the shaft. I don't think it ever got greased I greased it when I got the tractor running last year the only reason that I greased it is because I read the maintenance section of the repair manual. The pinion gear is worn, I may need to machine a bushing for the bottom on the lathe.

 

Let me know what you think,

 

Stephen

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#11 29 Chev OFFLINE  

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Posted February 27, 2017 - 10:10 AM

I would suggest that you remove the roll pin that holds the gear onto the shaft at the bottom and then remove the shaft out of the column - that way you can see if the shaft is worn or if the hole in the steering column is worn - if the shaft is worn you can build the area up with a bit of weld and then file or sand the weld back down to the same diameter as the shaft or if the hole in the column is worn you can probably make up a steel sleeve or bushing to get the hole the correct size.  Check to make sure the hole between the grease fitting and the shaft is not plugged - I had to run a small drill bit through mine if memory serves me correctly to clean out the crud - as far as the lower washer missing you can probably get a thin machinery spacer washer or regular flat washer at the hardware store and turn the hole out in your lathe to make it a nice fit on the shaft.  I do not recommend trying to remove the steering wheel from the shaft but if you feel brave you can check out how I got mine off in post # 102 and 103  http://gardentractor...-project/page-7 .

 

Once you clean the gunge off of the gear you may find that it is not worn as bad as you think - the holes in the support plate that the steering column mounting bolts go through are slotted to adjust the column sideways to remove excessive lash between the lower steering gear and the gear on the shaft - clean the teeth on the lower steering gear out as well and have a good look at them to determine their condition.  I find that if you gently lift up on the steering wheel while you are adjusting the column you should get a good gear teeth mesh - snug the bolts and then try turning the steering wheel from lock to lock and make sure you do not have any tight spots - if you do then you can readjust the column a little bit to get more clearance.   On the 1053  am working on I did build up about three teeth on the lower cast steering gear by welding them with the mig welder and then shaping the weld using a die grinder disc mounted in an electric drill - you may wish to try that or try and find a good used set to replace yours with.

 

You can see what the lower gear looked like on my 1053 in post # 83 here http://gardentractor...-project/page-6  - and in post # 85 you can see what they looked like after I welded them. 

 

If you check out post # 96 you can see how I removed the lower gear on the shaft http://gardentractor...-project/page-7 - and if you go to post # 108 you can see the brass bushing I made for the top of the steering column or you can probably buy the correct nylon one from one of the site sponsors.

 

You can also check out post # 123 and see the bushings I made for the idler arm that pivots on the PTO shaft - http://gardentractor...-project/page-9 .

 

Hope this helps.

 

 


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#12 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 27, 2017 - 10:29 PM

Thanks for taking the time to share all that info 29 Chevy,

I am going to do what you said and remove the pinion gear so I can inspect the shaft and repair as needed. I am also disassembling the battery compartment so I can clean up and paint the whole center section of the tractor that will clean up all the battery acid damage from when the battery hit the pulley, and from years of use. I am sending some more pictures of the progress so far.

 

The sheet metal is torn and cracked in places I need to repair these areas, I was thinking of brazing it.

Rick is helping me with some parts, I got a muffler and shield from him, I wire wheeled them today and will paint them with high heat paint tomorrow.

 

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#13 29 Chev OFFLINE  

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Posted February 28, 2017 - 08:43 AM

Since you have things apart that far you may wish to have a good look at the tensioner spring that hooks onto the idler arm for the drive belt tensioner pulley - if it is original it might be a good idea to replace it as they have been known to break - usually at the cotter key end.  Also check the eye of the cotter key to make sure it is not worn from contact with the spring - just suggestions.  


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#14 logmillingman OFFLINE  

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Posted February 28, 2017 - 08:02 PM

Great suggestion! 29 Chev,

 

actually when I first got the tractor running last spring the spring did break at the cotter pin and I had to replace it, you guys at GT talk helped me with that first problem and got me back up and running . Now I will replace the cotter pin. So you are right when you suggested replacing the spring.

 

Any suggestions on what to use to clean all the crud out of the area I have taken apart so I can paint it? I was thinking of using a power washer with a grease cutting cleaner.

 

I was able to remove all the roll pins on the PTO shaft and the steering pinion gear. Now I will have to use a torch to remove the pivot block, I am going to heat it up and cool it quickly with a wet rag and begin to try to move it back and forth then I will be able to drive it off the end of the shaft. I am going to replace all the bearings and bushings so I will not worry about melting the nylon. If I can't find new bearings and bushings I will make them on the lathe.


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#15 29 Chev OFFLINE  

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Posted February 28, 2017 - 08:23 PM

You could use engine shampoo or oven cleaner and let it sit for a while and then power wash it - if you have a heat gun you could warm the area up a bit with it so that the surfaces are warm before you spray the engine shampoo or oven cleaner on to help the cleaner work better - just be careful with any open flame as it could create a fire hazard and make sure you are in a well ventilated area - SAFETY FIRST.

 

 

I have found that a plastic pop bottle with a small hole drilled in the lid or an old dish washer detergent bottle work good for chilling parts after they are heated.  Fill the bottle up with cold water and after you have the part heated up you can direct a stream of cold water on the hot part - WATCH OUT FOR HOT STEAM THAT WILL BE CREATED AS THE PART COOLS.  Let things sit for a minute or two and then try to move the pivot - I clamped a pair of vise grips on to the pivot and a pair on to the flat bar that the idler pulley bolts to - you can hold the one end against a bench top and then try to move the other one back and forth a little bit.  Once you feel movement you can start to spray some penetrating fluid around the pivot to work it in.  I think I had to heat the pivot on mine up and cool it about three times before I got any movement as it was really seized - I used a MAP gas torch to heat the pivot.  Good Luck and work safe.   


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