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Jacobsen with a kohler k341 16hp engine problem


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#1 Bill2 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2016 - 10:47 PM

I have a old jacobsen with the kohler k341 16hp.  I rebuilt it thinking it had piston slap and bad rings so got a 20 over put new rings in it put it back together now still making the same knocking sounds. so then took it back apart made sure everything fit the way it should  timing was good adjusted the points made sure bearings,cam,gov everything like that was good put it back together,still makes knocking sound adjusted the timing with timing light adjusted the carb, is there something i'm missing  even thought of bad cam,but don't know how to check to see if the slinger looking things on the side of the cam is sticking or bad...  Thats all I can think of. The guy I had redo the cylinder bore said it mated good to the new piston and shouldn't have a [roblem with it  don't know for sure didn't take the head back off also had new valves put in and adjusted  any ideas would be great.    

 

Thinking of putting another motor on it but don't what kind will fit in the k341's place plus the sides of the jacobsen might no let me put a v twin it it ?



#2 larrybl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2016 - 10:55 PM

The kohler I had (321) on BMP knocked also. Seems normal for them.

https://www.youtube....h?v=Hkc1qBfHZyE

 

With a load

https://www.youtube....h?v=Umgg0EM5-kw



#3 Gtractor ONLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 02:08 AM

Sounds like the balance gears to me.   ???

If you still have the "balance gears" in there get them out before running that engine any more.  When they let go it'll destroy your engine and those gears are not needed for proper running. 

 

balgears.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#4 poncho62 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 06:05 AM

I have read where the cam can walk back and forth hitting the end of the bore that it sits in. That is why those spacers are there to take up the space. There is a measurement for cam max movement 


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#5 poncho62 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 06:12 AM

Then there is this  just read on another forum...... 

"

Re: calling Kohler experts - Kohler Knock

 Could be good ole "Kohler Rattle". You can google it... its real. Some do it, others do not. Best I can tell, the ignition lobe on the cam on some engines is cut so close to being "too advanced" that if you dont run your points as tight as possible, it will sound like you have a legitimate rod knock.

I just had my 224 act up.. sputtering, popping... Pulled the point cover and saw bright blue flames shooting out from the points. When I touched the points with my finger, I got zapped. Coil shorted internally and was sending high voltage to the points on occasion. By the time I had enough of the come again, go again backfiring and popping, the phenolic parts on the points had burned away from heat...

So, I swapped the points, condenser and coil from another tractor sitting in the same shed so I could get back to blowing snow.

But, then I suddenly had the "Kohler Rattle". Didn't have it before... had it now big time. And its always bad enough that if you were selling a tractor that knocked like that, no one would actually believe you that the motor was "just fine"...... I finished up the snow removal and got it back in the garage. I thinned out the points until they barely open but still runs the tractor....

"Kohler Rattle" was instantly gone.

I'm going to an event this weekend that just might find David Kirk there from Kirk Engines.... If he is there, I hope to have a little discussion about this issue as its not the first one I have had to deal with. Kirk makes electronic ignitions for pulling tractors, which unfortunately usually requires "timing advance".... I wonder what knowledge he might have to offer regards "Timing Retard" and this well known occasional problem. I am sure he is familiar with "Kohler Rattle"..... anyone who has worked on these has come across it.

So, go thin out your point gap before you do ANYTHING else..... see what happens. I once pulled a fresh rebuild all the way back apart when I first came across the issue. It was a waste of time because there was nothing wrong. Just the timing was too far advanced and you would have sworn a rod was about to come out the side. Sad that Kohler did not have a better timing method than this !"


Edited by poncho62, December 31, 2016 - 06:15 AM.

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#6 dropped82 ONLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 08:56 AM

That's a good read and sparks a memory. I got an Onan b43m ready for my Massey 1655. It's a loader machine so I wanted all available power. I installed p220 heads which have a slightly smaller combustion chamber and the spark plug is more centered (key point). Gets a little more torque from the old twin. After installing it, I was so excited to fire it up. Mind you, I had already pulled the pan and check the rods and also checked the bore. Once fire it knocked like there was no tomorrow. I actually backed up thinking it was gonna throw a rod. I thought and thought about what changes in did. Well, never readjusted the points after the new heads. The plug moving means I need to retard the timing. It was detonating. Although it's not a Kohler, the same concept applies to all engines. Too advance causes detonation. Some can be so severe, it'll actually damage things internally. In a nutshell, the mixture is igniting before the piston reached TDC. That's hard on them. So from here on out, that's the first thing I check now when I hear a knock or rattle. Hope my long rambling helps some. I was up late and up too early today do my info might be slightly flawed haha.

Eric

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#7 Trav1s ONLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 08:57 AM

I have read where the cam can walk back and forth hitting the end of the bore that it sits in. That is why those spacers are there to take up the space. There is a measurement for cam max movement 

 

I have also read this and currently have a STRONG K301 in my JD 312 that has the Kohler rattle and I suspect it is wear on the end of the cam.  I have no idea how many hours it has on it.


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#8 larrybl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 08:59 AM

Yes, remove the balance gears! I did on BMP, One was worn bad.



#9 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 09:17 AM

I had my flywheel come loose on my k341 16 hp kohler. Sounded like the rod was going to come through the block. Had to take the engine out to repair it.

These engines have shims for end play on the crank also, if I remember right.

Noel
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#10 SimplyRad OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 10:40 AM

This maybe explains the rattle of my K301 when at idle. It soulds a lot better when reved up.



#11 Bill2 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 02:31 PM

Well I took the timing light and reset the points to where the timing marks were lining up at idle or just above idle, seems like I have a hard time keeping on the line, wants to move down then back up down then back up , thats what makes me think it might be in the cam doesn't it have a way those cams advance and retard the timing a little on a strain or high rpms . I don't know much on the cams on kohler but they have these little things on the side of the cam gear that looks like they could move under certain conditions..  by the way still can't get rid of the knock and checked the carb seems like its getting the right amount of fuel not to lean muffler doesn;t  seem to get to hot like its running to lean does crack and pop once in a while like like I loose points fire but i checked seems good. still stuck can't figure it out, if i can't figure it out soon i'll take it back apart and remove balance gears...  any thing i might be missing??



#12 Bill2 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 02:40 PM

also seems like at low idle  knock is not noticeable but after idle and every where in rpm range knocks like its ready to blow up .  does the balance gears really do any good or just some thing somebody thought up to fill up some space in block and make it look complicated.



#13 larrybl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 04:25 PM

This was quoted to me when I was rebuilding my engine, and I found some pictures of it. You will need to pull the crank to get the top balance gear out.

 

"Don't (re)install the balance gears in an engine if it's going to turn above 4,000 rpm! (The factory maximum rpms for virtually all small gas engines, including all of Kohler engines is 3,600.)

The high rpms could cause them to break and destroy the engine! So when building an engine that's going to turn above 4,000 rpm, these gears (and spacers) MUST be permanently removed! Remember - "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

It's okay to leave the stub shafts in the block. Or if you want, drive out the balance gear pins from the block (from the PTO end), cut 1/4" NPT threads and install a couple of 1/4" NPT Allen pipe plugs from outside the block. Be sure to use silicone sealer too, to prevent an oil leak. Or, the holes can be welded up solid.

And if a stock OEM-type piston assembly and connecting rod is going to be (re)used, there's no need to re-balance the crankshaft/piston/rod assembly if these gears are removed.

If you want, leave the balance gears out. Actually, they're more trouble reinstalling and align with the crankshaft than they're worth. You won't notice that much difference in the vibration of the engine, either. It won't damage anything and it won't hurt anything. The engine will operate just fine without them. By the way - I've seen balance gears in the 10hp, 12hp, 14hp and 16hp engines, but not every one of them have balance gears.

I've even seen some 16hp Kohler Magnum engines have three balance gears! Anyway, it seems that Kohler was selective in which engines they put them in. Perhaps they only put them in engines that was installed in a "luxury-type" of garden tractor to help reduce operator discomfort. And every balance gear I've ever seen appear to be exactly the same weight and design.

For most single cylinder Kohler engines, balance gears isn't really necessary.

Leaving them out shouldn't have a noticeable effect on engine vibrations, but they do help to reduce engine vibrations somewhat. So if you choose to reinstall or leave them in an engine that will never turn more than 4,000 rpms (this is the maximum rpms for pulling in stock classes or doing ordinary yard work), make sure that the bearings in the [balance] gears and the stub shafts that they spin on are in good condition. If the bearings are worn and if the balance gears wobble, they'll wear the crankshaft gear teeth and they could break, possibly destroying the engine. By the way - you can get the balance gears alignment tool (timing gage) from your local Kohler engine dealer. The part number is 10355 or Y-357. It's much easier to use this tool when aligning the balance gears in time with the crankshaft. See the drawing to the right for correct identification of this tool.

Once, just for curiosity, after I've rebuilt a 12hp (K301) Kohler engine, I've ran the engine with the balance gears installed. Then we took them out to see if the engine would vibrate more. (It wasn't a lot of work to remove the gears. WE just removed the oil pan, snap rings, washers and spacers, rotated the crankshaft a certain way, and then lifted the gears right out.) Anyway, we found that without the balance gears, the engine vibrated EXACTLY the same as when the gears were installed! Makes ya wonder why Kohler installs them in the first place. ????

The balance gears in a 12hp Kohler engine can be removed without removing the crankshaft. What's needed is a heavy duty snap ring pliers with 90º tips to remove the snap rings. Be sure to remove the spacers (if equipped) and shims from the shafts, too. The counterweights on the 12hp crankshaft are machined off, allowing room to remove the balance gears. But on a 14 and 16hp engine, the counterweights may be in the way. If it is, try driving the pins from the PTO end of the block instead and then plug the holes from the outside with a couple of 1/2" cup-shaped expansion plugs.

http://www.gardentra...s.com/index.htm

http://www.gardentra...com/balance.htm

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#14 larrybl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 04:28 PM

This was another comment about shims.

"Bearing plate need to be shimed to clearence and if you have the Old Valve cover they leak like a siv... So get a new one from Kirk engines..."

 

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#15 Bill2 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2016 - 05:04 PM

thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and take the balance gears out as they do shake back and forth so bearings can't be good. as far as the shems everything that was originally in the engine when i got it, was put back the same way it came out. but i'll check crank for end play anyway.  man this little motor is starting to be a :wallbanging:






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