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mysterious engine knock....


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#1 BillTheTractorMan OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 08:37 PM

So... Went to my grandparents farm where every engine knocks and every transmission whines. Brought my SS12 with and while unloading it from the trailer the trans began to whine. With in a day the engine was knocking like the police at the neighbors door(we can hear it 2 houses down with the windows closed)....

Got home and tore into it, took everything apart and looked everything over. All the bearings are good, the rod is good, everything except the exhaust valve guide is in good condition.

by the way, when I got it home and spun it over with out letting it start there was no knock. (before opening it up)

Now As I'm putting it back together, I'm worried because it there was a cause before and I didn't change anything it's still there...

I have one question, it didn't get answered over on MTF but I think it will here. Will parts from a Tecumseh HH100 work in my HH120?

I have a HH100 out of a wheel horse that I want to use to make a generator but it needs to be bored out and sleeved from what I have been told by my grandfather. Depending on the costs I might just part it out.


The reason for sleeving that engine is it already has an over sized piston and rings and smokes like an old lady. Every thing else is good and it looks like it will only cost me $40 for a new STD piston and rings.


My next question is, does any one know where I can have a sleeve made for this engine? I can't find any places around here that do any work with sleeves. I'm still looking for a place to bore it out to fit a sleeve in it.

#2 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 08:54 PM

A good many of the parts interchange between the HH100 and HH120. The only problem is I can't remember if it is just the bore size or if it is stroke also. I am sure someone will be able to give you the correct answer on that.

Are you sure the engine still needs sleeved? It may have an oversized piston already but it may only be .010 over and the cylinder wear may only be .003 out of round which would still clean up and you could get by with a .020 or .030 oversize piston kit depending on how out of round and what it was previously bored to.

Are you sure the knock you were hearing wasn't from endplay on the crankshaft?

#3 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 09:06 PM

I had a strnge knock in my HH120. It turned out the bearing cap was loose under the flywheel, but you have already taken yours apart so you would have found it. I think the only difference in the HH120 and HH100 is the bore.

#4 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 09:16 PM

Stroke is different between them, bore being 3/16" wider on the HH120. Rods interchange.
NAPA does cylinder sleeving, but some have to send them to main NAPA machine shop. Sleeving will run at least $100+. Then piston/rings on top of that as well as gaskets.
If it was a very hot day, the engine may have been suffering from pre-ignition, which can make them knock like no tomorrow.
Wondering....why ask questions at other forums that you don't expect to get answers from? GTT is the best place for info.

Edited by olcowhand, June 03, 2011 - 09:57 PM.
Corrected my info

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#5 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 09:44 PM

The bore and stroke are different between the HH100 and HH120.
bore/stroke HH100 > 3.313 / 2.750 > 23.7o cid
bore/stroke HH120 > 3.500 / 2.875 > 27.66 cid
Picture is from my Massey MF10, MF12 service manual.
The rods are the same part as said above.
hh 026.jpg
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#6 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 09:48 PM

I knew something was the same between the two other then other misc parts, just couldn't remember. Thanks for the good info guys.

#7 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 09:54 PM

If it was a very hot day, the engine may have been suffering from pre-ignition,


It could be compounded by low RPMs and the other sparkbtrigger firing.

#8 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 09:59 PM

Thanks for correcting me Doug. Been some time since I worked on either model, and I didn't have my reading specs on when looking at my sketchy pdf manual. :wallbanging:
I corrected my post also. I may still be wrong about the rod interchange???
It's heck getting older & fighting CRS! :D

#9 BillTheTractorMan OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 10:06 PM

It was a 70 degree day, it did it at all rpms. I figured moisture got on the rod and clogged the whole or something so I goosed the throttle which didn't help. than gave up after letting it run for another minute.

Thanks for answering those questions. I have yet to look inside the HH100 yet, I'm hoping it turns out to only be over sized rings. I would love to only hone it and replace the rings.

So far I'm into this engine nothing, Grandpa gave it to me. I'm willing to put some money into it but I'm not going to go over board on it.

One more question, where can I find over sized rings for an HH100. My 2inch thick napa book only lists STD rings.


Thanks!


Edit: Timing is correct on the engine.

#10 DH1 OFFLINE  

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Posted June 03, 2011 - 10:08 PM

Thanks for correcting me Doug. Been some time since I worked on either model, and I didn't have my reading specs on when looking at my sketchy pdf manual. :wallbanging:
I corrected my post also. I may still be wrong about the rod interchange???
It's heck getting older & fighting CRS! :D

I think your right on the rods interchange every where I look the same part #s for both 10s and 12s.
You and me the same age so we got the same age related problems.

#11 BillTheTractorMan OFFLINE  

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Posted June 04, 2011 - 05:05 PM

Found it's the exhaust valve and the worn guide that's causing it.... Valve is not hitting the head so I'm going to let it fly for now.


As for the rings on the HH100, where would I find over sized ring for one? I tried starting ti today and it refused. It has spark, has some compression, and plenty of starting fluid... Just no pop yet. I'm off to do some running around town, I will work on it tomorrow.

I have not compression tested it yet but it feels like it maybe has 40psi or so, It should start... After all my little 3.5hp briggs push mower engine runs great with only 40psi.... LOL

#12 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted June 04, 2011 - 05:20 PM

Saegertown Hardware (PA) is where I got the last set of OEM rings in the county, while there he told me there was a company reproducing rings and they should be available sometime this summer. You may want to check with your local, independent repair place or a NAPA to see if they have heard anything.

#13 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted June 04, 2011 - 06:58 PM

You can check with Hastings Piston Rings...Since 1915
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#14 BillTheTractorMan OFFLINE  

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Posted June 04, 2011 - 11:05 PM

I found a set here, would the ones listed be .03 or .02 over? I have not had a chance to work on the engine yet and measure it but I assume I need .02 or.03 over sized.

Also, where would I find a good hone for and engine of this size? what's the procedure for honing an engine of this size too?

#15 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted June 05, 2011 - 07:18 AM

To determine the size needed, (if using old piston/bore), the piston top should have the size stamped on it. Otherwise, if boring/honing to next size, it really needs to be done at a shop where they can determine the size needed to clean up the bore. Honing to take one to the next size requires a special rigid hone, which is quite expensive. A homeowner type hone will not work to increase bore size.




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