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Ethanol free pre-mix?

ethanol 2-cycle 4 cycle pre-mix

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#31 MiCarl OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 07:43 AM

I'm a bit jealous of you guys that have easy access to E0.  For me it would be a 20 mile drive.

On the other hand, I make a lot of money every spring cleaning motorcycle carburetors that sat 5-7 months with untreated E10.


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#32 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 08:36 AM

On the other hand, I make a lot of money every spring cleaning motorcycle carburetors that sat 5-7 months with untreated E10.

Well I guess the one poster on this thread did say ethanol was good for the economy!


Edited by earthgrinder, December 08, 2016 - 08:36 AM.

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#33 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 09:19 AM

A lot of mis-conception and bad information here. NO, I am not a farmer or tied to any additive company.  I do live in farm/ag country.  Subsidies - yes the ethanol industry does receive some, jut like every other industry in the country including farmers.  We have become a nation of subsidies.  Ethanol has very minimal effect on food prices.  Ethanol corn ground does not compete with food corn ground either.  Both are raised in different parts of the country due to soil and other conditions.  Just because ethanol don't put a $5 bill in your pocket every morning don't mean it is not a boost to the economy.  How about the workers at the plants?  The trucks to get the corn to the plant? The railroads to get the gas in to mix with ethanol and ship the finished product out?  The industries the produce the material to improve the roads around, to and from major highways around the plants and the material to build the sidings to get the product out?  Darn right it boosts the overall economy.  Ethanol is not new.  Most of us were not around when ethanol (also known as alcohol) came on the scene back in the 1920's so it is not new.  Mass production is relatively new.  Most of us have no idea what kind of gas mileage we got with our vehicles back in the 50's let alone claim that ethanol blended gas reduces mileage.  E85 is a different story.  I am by no mean an expert on ethanol or fuel in general.  I just know what I have learned by attending various meetings prior to the ethanol plants being built.  As a retired law enforcement officer we had to know about the industry to provide the safety that my be required of us.  BNSF main line goes through our town and an ethanol plant is just 4 miles away.  Enough said.


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#34 John Arsenault OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 09:51 AM

Personal observation:  I cannot believe people are being sold on paying $5 and up for a quart of ethanol free premix!  I just did this when purchasing a new leaf blower to get a 4 year warranty.  I have never to this point had a problem that I can blame of the E-10 gas!  For years I have been using a fuel stabilizer and Marvel Mystery Oil in my air cooled engine gas.  I have never seen any pitting or corrosion in the fuel system.  Today I was as much as told that the E-10 fuel was responsible for clogging the spark arrester in my new chain saw with less than 2 gallon of fuel ran through it and I used the recommended premium oil and grade of fuel recommended by the factory.  The technician recommended I buy the ethanol free premix - I don't think so.  Some insist on running premium fuel in air cooled engines.  I just do not buy it!  It seems like a lot of extra expense for no good reason.  Personally I think we are being sold something we do not need!  You are paying $20 and up per gallon of fuel.

I am a professional chainsaw carver and only run Stihl chainsaws, First off I will cover that expensive premix, its not needed. second, it was not ethanol that clogged your spark arrestor screen. 

 

Now time to explain. What ethanol does to our (2 stroke) fuel is a thing called separation. This is when the oil and the gas mix separate. Because ethanol is an alcohol base and oil is petroleum base these two do not mix well. Separation occurs even if there is no ethanol, but more so with it. This separation does not only happen in the fuel system, but in the crank case as well. On a 2 stroke engine the premix is also your engine oil. light amounts of unburned oil end up in the crank case and provide your bearings (wrist pins etc.) with oil. When the ethanol (alcohol) evaporates what do you think is left behind? Yep sticky oil , some gummy stuff at that.  That is part of what what is causing the spark arrestor screens to fail so soon. The next how the saw is run, if you do not rev these they gum up. Ethanol is no good for our systems, but I did say you do not need that expensive stuff so here is your work around. I use way to much fuel in my saws not to go the cheap route. 

 

 

To use ethanol fuel in your two stroke

 

1. Buy only enough fuel to last a few weeks tops, I personally prefer just a week.

2. Use only a top quality synthetic 2-stroke oil. 

3. Store your fuel in a "metal" unvented can. 

4. Shake gas can and chain saw after sitting even if its only been over night. 

5. use only the higher octain 

6. Make sure that you rev the saw the way it was designed to, cutting at mid rpms is not saving the life of your saw, you should be using it at about 3/4 throttle and above while cutting. and don't be afraid to give it some clear out revs when not using it hard. 

 

 

I am staying out of the debate on ethanol itself, but have experienced some of the issues that many have and since I use a chainsaw daily use the same gas as I do my weedeater that I hardly use. If I leave the fuel in it I am asking for problems, the weedeater has gummed up on me many times as I have once left the fuel it had in it. I started dumping the fuel back into the metal storage can when I was done with it and it has been good ever since. the weed eater would only see use about 6 times a year and never during winter while the chainsaws get a work out at least 5 days a week.  So don't store fuel in your machine for a long period of time. Also no need to add MMO or any other stable product to your 2 stroke fuel I only use MMO in my straight fuel to combat the ethanol issues a good quality synthetic premix will do and the steps I listed above for your 2 stroke.  Basically ethanol evaporate and leaves residual  crud behind, don't let that happen and you will be much better off. Yes it dries out rubber and all that stuff to, but if its to costly to avoid, hope that helps.


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#35 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 09:53 AM

One thing for sure, it's not going away anytime soon!  All of our leaders here and abroad "drank the kool-aid".  Chieffan, you probably have heard more information from official sources than most of us on the subject.  I also know from informational meetings I have attended that many times the informant oversells their product and that it may not really do all the things that are claimed. 

 

Anyway my main point of this thread was about the push for the expensive "canned fuel" that I am seeing more and more of.  I suppose I would agree that it may have its use in a piece of equipment that you may only use a gallon of fuel in it over say a years time. 


Edited by earthgrinder, December 08, 2016 - 10:07 AM.

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#36 John Arsenault OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 10:00 AM

When you try to mix water and oil or alcohol and oil, the polar molecules stick together, keeping the oil molecules from getting between them-and the two don't mix. When you try to mix water and alcohol, they mix fine, since both are made of polar molecules.


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#37 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 10:26 AM

Another perspective on this and we may be missing it since we actually use these machines regularly , the quarts of fuel sold at the dealership are really perfect for the "Modern day consumer" who maybe fires up the saw once a year to cut a limb or the guy who uses a quart of gas a year to blow the leaves in the fall. For that market the premixed fuel is a great alternative to avoid stale fuel and not have to mix a gallon of gas when he/ she only uses a quart a year.

 

I think alot of us being collectors and enthusiasts tend to overlook this , but in reality the group I describe makes up 90% of the industry today.


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#38 LilysDad OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 11:18 AM

 

 

.  I suppose I would agree that it may have its use in a piece of equipment that you may only use a gallon of fuel in it over say a years time. 

My L&G Dealer recommends the premix only for use in your equipment going into winter storage. In our area, there is no E0.


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#39 earthgrinder OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 11:44 AM

Another perspective on this and we may be missing it since we actually use these machines regularly , the quarts of fuel sold at the dealership are really perfect for the "Modern day consumer" who maybe fires up the saw once a year to cut a limb or the guy who uses a quart of gas a year to blow the leaves in the fall. For that market the premixed fuel is a great alternative to avoid stale fuel and not have to mix a gallon of gas when he/ she only uses a quart a year.

 

I think alot of us being collectors and enthusiasts tend to overlook this , but in reality the group I describe makes up 90% of the industry today.

I totally agree with your view.  Probably the "stale gas" and/or the separation that John spoke of lead to the spark arrestor clogging that I experienced. Possibly if I was using that ethanol free fuel the screen would not have clogged.  I doubt I used much more than a gallon the first  2 years I had the saw.  I have an old Lancaster chain saw with a Tecumseh 2 stroke with a diaphragm carburetor.  If it sets for a couple of months I have to remove the diaphragm and clean out the oil for it to start.  Our fuel today with the ethanol evaporates much faster leaving the oil behind.  Whenever I use my emergency generator I run it out of fuel when the lights come back on.


Edited by earthgrinder, December 08, 2016 - 11:45 AM.

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#40 adamjd200 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 11:45 AM

Food corn may not be displaced by ethanol corn, BUT, feed corn is the same basic corn and does raise feed prices for livestock farms, I have been around livestock all my life owning cattle, chickens, and turkeys among others, my father drives a feed truck delivering feed to local farmers as well as working in the mill, this is just a view from a different angle.  BTW, beef, milk, and most grain prices are in the toilet right now.


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#41 Nato77 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 12:25 PM

The by product of ethanal is turned into animal feed. So every truck load of corn hauled in I'd say atleast half the load comes back out for feed. So I don't see how it can raise food prices by shorting the animal feed supply. The grain prices are, in my opinion, what set the raising and lowering (which doesn't seem to happen much) of food prices. All the big wigs in the fed and wall Street play with numbers and magically come up with a number they see fit.

Now gas with ethanal is not something I run in my small engines. The amount of ethanal per gallon varies quite a bit. So you never exactly know what mix your really getting. Running none ethanal gas to me is the safest bet. Everything I have runs so much better.

As for the premix, everything now a days is made and marketed for convenience. The premix gas, 50/50 antifreeze, 5 quart oil jugs, cake mix, bottled water, and so on. Nowadays less work seems to be the way to go, less thinking the better too.
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#42 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 12:36 PM

Corn prices are down to $3.02, give or take.  Beef prices are way up in the store.  Milk is around $3 a gallon.  So depends on where your at for the price aspect of things.  Most of the informational meetings I attended were not really pushing the industry of ethanol, but the safety of dealing with it.  Main 3 were plant fires, vehicle collisions and rail derailments.


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#43 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 12:42 PM

The by product of ethanal is turned into animal feed. So every truck load of corn hauled in I'd say atleast half the load comes back out for feed. So I don't see how it can raise food prices by shorting the animal feed supply. The grain prices are, in my opinion, what set the raising and lowering (which doesn't seem to happen much) of food prices. All the big wigs in the fed and wall Street play with numbers and magically come up with a number they see fit.

Now gas with ethanal is not something I run in my small engines. The amount of ethanal per gallon varies quite a bit. So you never exactly know what mix your really getting. Running none ethanal gas to me is the safest bet. Everything I have runs so much better.

As for the premix, everything now a days is made and marketed for convenience. The premix gas, 50/50 antifreeze, 5 quart oil jugs, cake mix, bottled water, and so on. Nowadays less work seems to be the way to go, less thinking the better too.

Have to agree with you all the way.  I bought 4 gallons of #1 diesel ( kerosene) the other day for $3.65 a gallon.  Local farm & home has 5 gal. can of kerosene for $39.95.  Problem with that is most people don't know that #1 and kerosene work hand in hand, just a different name.  #1 diesel is available about any larger gas station, truck stop, etc.


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#44 LilysDad OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 01:08 PM

Food corn may not be displaced by ethanol corn, BUT, feed corn is the same basic corn and does raise feed prices for livestock farms,

Somewhere recently, I heard that only 10% of the corn raised in this country goes for food. So, the vast majority of corn goes to feed and all the other things made from corn.



#45 adamjd200 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 08, 2016 - 01:09 PM

Corn prices are down to $3.02, give or take.  Beef prices are way up in the store.  Milk is around $3 a gallon.  So depends on where your at for the price aspect of things.  Most of the informational meetings I attended were not really pushing the industry of ethanol, but the safety of dealing with it.  Main 3 were plant fires, vehicle collisions and rail derailments.

I was referring to the prices paid to farmers, which are way down, store prices generally follow suite.  As far as feeding the byproduct, around here most don't use distiller's grain from the ethanol plants, last I knew it was a quality issue or similar.







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