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OOP'S! - 650 Transmission Problem!


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#1 flyboy OFFLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 04:35 AM

Having just completed the restoration of my used and abused 650, I felt sorry for it!  (before and after pics attached).  I decided it was time to run it around the block and see if anything needed tweaking. I guess I should have started with the clutch adjustment before I fired up the engine, but with the engine running and the clutch petal fully depressed the driveshaft would stop rotating, so I thought I was good. Well, long story short, I ground the gears trying to get it into reverse and now I cannot get it out of reverse. To be honest I have ground the gears before, by mistake, of course, but never had this problem.

 

I opened it up and found that the one shift rod is jammed and it is not going to move. I can't see that it is bent, but that is what I am thinking. No amount of force will get it to move. All the gears are free and spin when I roll the tractor back and forth, so there is no jam there. There is damage to some of the gear teeth on the outer edges. I don't know how long these teeth have been damaged, but this would maybe explain why it has always been difficult to shift.  When I bought this 650 twenty years ago I initially thought that there was a problem with the synchronizers.   DUH!!  There are none, and I learned quickly the the tractor had to be at a full stop before changing gears. Like I said this 650 has been used and abused.

 

Any Ideas how to get the shift rod unstuck? Pounding doesn't work, maybe heat at a strategic point?  I really don't have an immediate need for another mower at this time, so while I was having fun restoring it i always figured that it would be a "hangar queen" anyway.  It would just be nice if it would roll on it's own! I'm going to try firing it up with the wheels disengaged and see what that does.  Attached a couple of pics of this.

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#2 chieffan ONLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 06:45 AM

First, you need to find what part is binding and where.  Is it the fork that is bound or is it the sliding gear?  Should not need any heat to get them to move.  Light tapping usually will get them where they are supposed to be - IF the fork is not bent.   Try moving the gear itself and see if the fork will go with it.  From the photo it looks like the gear needs to go towards the front of the case.  Good luck.


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#3 John Arsenault OFFLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 07:13 AM

I agree with Chieffan ....something is bent, that shaft don't look like it would bend easy so I would look at the shift forks or gears also look very carefully for a cir clip that could have slid on the shaft . With these transmissions its hard to see the inside of the gears and the grooves on the inside of shafts so as you get things moving make sure to inspect. If anything broke you may find it on the very bottom of the pan.


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#4 Bruce Dorsi ONLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 07:55 AM

If you're trying to move the shift rod which your finger is touching, you will not be able to, since the other shift rod is not in its neutral position.

 

The shift rods are interlocked so that two gears can not be engaged at the same time.

 

Notice the groove in the shift rod (last pic) just in front of your finger, and the groove on the other side of the cast-iron divider?  ....It appears this shift rod is in its correct neutral position. 

 

There are 3 grooves in each shift rod.  ....A spring loaded ball drops into the groove as a detent.

 

Now, look at the position of the other shift rod grooves.  ...It appears that shift rod is not in its centered (neutral) position.  ...That shift rod needs to be moved forward so the detent ball can land in the center groove of that shift rod.

 

The detent system works very well if the two balls, their springs, and the interlock pin (plug) is in place.

 

Visit page 3-11 of the Service Manual here: http://gardentractor...anual-552875-1/   for an illustration and explanation of how it works.


Edited by Bruce Dorsi, July 26, 2016 - 08:00 AM.

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#5 Bruce Dorsi ONLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 08:09 AM

I can't edit my post above any longer, so I'll continue here.

 

Looking at your third picture, the shift rod which you are pointing to is in the correct neutral position.

 

The shift rod below that one, is not aligned with the shift rod you are pointing to.  ......Pry this rod forward until it is aligned with the shift rod you are pointing at.

 

The two shift rods need to be in the neutral position before any one gear is selected.  ....They also need to be in the neutral position when you re-install the trans cover.   ....The ball on the lower end of the gear shift has to fit in the notch created when the two shift rods are aligned in the neutral position.


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#6 flyboy OFFLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 08:15 AM

If you're trying to move the shift rod which your finger is touching, you will not be able to, since the other shift rod is not in its neutral position.

 

The shift rods are interlocked so that two gears can not be engaged at the same time.

 

Notice the groove in the shift rod (last pic) just in front of your finger, and the groove on the other side of the cast-iron divider?  ....It appears this shift rod is in its correct neutral position. 

 

There are 3 grooves in each shift rod.  ....A spring loaded ball drops into the groove as a detent.

 

Now, look at the position of the other shift rod grooves.  ...It appears that shift rod is not in its centered (neutral) position.  ...That shift rod needs to be moved forward so the detent ball can land in the center groove of that shift rod.

 

The detent system works very well if the two balls, their springs, and the interlock pin (plug) is in place.

 

Visit page 3-11 of the Service Manual here: http://gardentractor...anual-552875-1/   for an illustration and explanation of how it works.

I didn't know about the interlock, Thanks, I'll see where that takes me and thanks for the manual link!


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#7 CanadianHobbyFarmer ONLINE  

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Posted July 26, 2016 - 06:34 PM

In addition to what Bruce said, the rod you are pointing at is for second and third gear. If you are stuck in reverse as you said, you are fighting with the wrong shift rod  The part of the actual shift handle that engages the shift rods moves exactly the opposite of the end you hang onto, so when you push the shifter to the left and forward to engage reverse, it engages the shift rod on the right and pushes it backward. The rod you are not pointing at does appear to be in reverse. I hope it is an easy fix for you.

 

I would also like to say that your 650 looks great.  My nicest looking one looks a lot like your before picture, 

 

Jim


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#8 flyboy OFFLINE  

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Posted July 29, 2016 - 04:57 AM

In addition to what Bruce said, the rod you are pointing at is for second and third gear. If you are stuck in reverse as you said, you are fighting with the wrong shift rod  The part of the actual shift handle that engages the shift rods moves exactly the opposite of the end you hang onto, so when you push the shifter to the left and forward to engage reverse, it engages the shift rod on the right and pushes it backward. The rod you are not pointing at does appear to be in reverse. I hope it is an easy fix for you.

 

I would also like to say that your 650 looks great.  My nicest looking one looks a lot like your before picture, 

 

Jim

Yes! I was pointing to the wrong rod in the picture, it is the other rod that is stuck. Bruce told me about the interlock and I suspect that is where the problem lies. The manual shows the interlock assembly with the balls and springs, so I jumped right on that and found that the access plug seems to be underneath the tube frame. Unless someone tells me different it looks like I will need to unbolt the left tube from the transmission to access the interlock assembly plug?

 

Thanks for the complement about the tractor restore. I probably have more invested in it than it is worth, but nobody ever said that a "hobby" would be profitable.



#9 Bruce Dorsi ONLINE  

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Posted July 29, 2016 - 08:38 AM

Yes! I was pointing to the wrong rod in the picture, it is the other rod that is stuck. Bruce told me about the interlock and I suspect that is where the problem lies. The manual shows the interlock assembly with the balls and springs, so I jumped right on that and found that the access plug seems to be underneath the tube frame. Unless someone tells me different it looks like I will need to unbolt the left tube from the transmission to access the interlock assembly plug?

 

 

 

If you are certain that the interlock is where the problem is (I'm not convinced, yet) you will need to loosen the caps clamping the frame tubes to the transaxle.  ....Since you already have the trans cover removed, you can slide the transaxle rearward on the frame tubes until the socket-head set screw (for the interlock) is accessible.  ....You do not have to completely remove the transaxle, unless you want to.

 

However, just removing the set screw will not let you remove the interlock pin, as that is located between the two shift rods, and can not be removed without removing the shift rails.  .....To remove the shift rods, the roll pins holding the shift forks to the shift rods must be removed.  ....When the shift rods are removed, the detent balls will drop into the bottom of the trans unless you can catch them first.

 

I'm not sure your problem is in the detent interlock, so I'd check that the shift forks are not bent first.  .....A bent fork may allow two gears to engage at the same time.

 

The detent interlock is basically foolproof, so I can't see attacking that first, before eliminating other possibilities.


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#10 Bruce Dorsi ONLINE  

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Posted July 31, 2016 - 06:09 AM

Any progress on repair, yet ??

 

Looking at the pictures again, it appears that the shift fork on the lower shift rod may have moved on the shift rod.

 

If the roll pin holding the shift fork to the shift rod has sheared, the shift fork may be out of position.

 

The shiny area on the shift rod, in front of the shift fork, makes me think that the shift fork has possibly moved.

 


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#11 flyboy OFFLINE  

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Posted August 01, 2016 - 05:56 PM

Any progress on repair, yet ??

 

Looking at the pictures again, it appears that the shift fork on the lower shift rod may have moved on the shift rod.

 

If the roll pin holding the shift fork to the shift rod has sheared, the shift fork may be out of position.

 

The shiny area on the shift rod, in front of the shift fork, makes me think that the shift fork has possibly moved.

I went up to Wisconsin yesterday and picked up a 1050 I bought on eBay, so I just now got back to looking at the shift forks on the 650 and didn't find any problems. All the gears turn freely, nothing binding, so I removed the roll pin from the 1st/rev shift rod and the rod (rail) IS STUCK! I read your procedure for removing the interlock balls and springs  and thought "NO - I really don't want to do that if I don't have to, but at this point it looks like this is where I am heading. Do you agree? Before this problem manifested itself i was having problems shifting into rev, it just didn't want to go, even if the gear spin was stopped. That is why I initially thought the 1st/rev shift rod was bent, but it doesn't seem to be.



#12 Bruce Dorsi ONLINE  

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Posted August 01, 2016 - 07:12 PM

Thanks for the update!

 

If the shift rod is not bent near the front end, then yes, the interlock must be where the problem is. 

 

The detent balls should be perfectly round with no marks or flat spots.  ......The interlock pin can be checked for length, as per the dimension specified in that Bolens info linked above. 

 

When you re-install the shift forks, remember that they face opposite directions as in your pics.

 

Please let us know what you find.


Edited by Bruce Dorsi, August 01, 2016 - 07:13 PM.

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#13 29 Chev ONLINE  

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Posted August 01, 2016 - 07:20 PM

I went up to Wisconsin yesterday and picked up a 1050 I bought on eBay, so I just now got back to looking at the shift forks on the 650 and didn't find any problems. All the gears turn freely, nothing binding, so I removed the roll pin from the 1st/rev shift rod and the rod (rail) IS STUCK! I read your procedure for removing the interlock balls and springs  and thought "NO - I really don't want to do that if I don't have to, but at this point it looks like this is where I am heading. Do you agree? Before this problem manifested itself i was having problems shifting into rev, it just didn't want to go, even if the gear spin was stopped. That is why I initially thought the 1st/rev shift rod was bent, but it doesn't seem to be.

Does the shift fork slide on the rod and let you shift the transmission out of reverse so that it is in neutral?



#14 flyboy OFFLINE  

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Posted August 01, 2016 - 08:51 PM

Does the shift fork slide on the rod and let you shift the transmission out of reverse so that it is in neutral?

Yes! With the fork not connected to the rod (no roll pin) the fork with gear slides on the spline shaft and the rod.


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#15 flyboy OFFLINE  

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Posted August 01, 2016 - 08:53 PM

Yes! With the fork not connected to the rod (no roll pin) the fork with gear slides on the spline shaft and the rod.

A video would be helpful here - can videos be uploaded to GTT or are they to big?


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