Jump to content

Nominations for Tractor of the Month
Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

1254 Noisey Gears


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#16 Bolens800uk OFFLINE  

Bolens800uk
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 63893
  • 1,165 Thanks
  • 919 posts
  • Location: Devon, England

Posted June 06, 2016 - 11:24 AM

I have added the item number off EBay UK below

291299788178

#17 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted June 12, 2016 - 12:28 PM

This afternoon I pulled the cover off  the gearbox as need to get to the bottom  of the issue I have with the PTO  shaft drive belts and the size issue I have with the belts.

Just playing around with the gear selection process and bearing in mind this is a straight cut gearbox without any synchromesh the endfloat on the input shaft gears is horrendous and cannot possibly be right.

 

Obviously I cannot say what has happened in it's previous life but when I had the box apart last for the reverse gear repairs it went back exactly as taken apart.

 

No oil on earth would quieten this unless running in non thematically affected treacle. 

 

So am going to pull the box and rebuild from the bits I have and reduce the end float and see what happens.


  • olcowhand and Bolens800uk have said thanks

#18 Bolens800uk OFFLINE  

Bolens800uk
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 63893
  • 1,165 Thanks
  • 919 posts
  • Location: Devon, England

Posted June 13, 2016 - 03:32 PM

Be good to see some photos of the gears when you dismantle it.

#19 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted June 13, 2016 - 04:50 PM

Will do that. When I bought it,  it was essentially a wreck and wouldn't run properly or start. So once fixed with new carb and starter overhaul and bad earths fixed I could assess it. That's when I found out about no reverse gear so had to strip it. It was noisy then on idle and forward gears. Once box was removed it was obvious what the issue was, idler in the lower box 50% stripped so as it happened there was at the time a rebuild/restore article here for gears stripped. I had a friend/supplier near Stockton on teas who I sent the affected gears to in order to repair like the article which he did and reassembled the box the way it came apart.

 

Whilst on it's first run to ensure all parts of tractor were fully functioning I noticed how noisy it was but put a lot of this down to the different profile on the teeth after the repair.

 

Now I'm starting to get it back up to full working order as per previous posts I've had a good look at it all and the end float is shocking. In addition, I have just torn down a 3 speed box from the G10 I'm breaking and along with the G14 internals have noticed the lateral movement on the shafts is not brilliant.

 

However, as previously pointed out, bit's in the UK are horrendously expensive and when you can find new stuff in the States whilst reasonably priced we get hammered on air freight and import duty so will get a lot of the bronze bushes made when I'm next overseas along with some spares.

 

One of the big problems I have to deal with on a daily basis is the actual problem definition so whilst the box might be noisy, how do you define the noise? Is it chatter, whine, grinding etc as all have different root causes.


  • Bolens800uk said thank you

#20 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

Bruce Dorsi

    Old, but not dead -- yet!

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1525
  • 3,179 Thanks
  • 2,148 posts
  • Location: New Jersey

Posted June 13, 2016 - 06:33 PM

A certain amount of gear noise is normal for tube-frames in 2nd & 3rd gear (high range).

 

Noisy bearings are not normal, and loose bearings can affect gear mesh, which in turn, affects noise.


  • Bolens 1000, heliosuk and Bolens800uk have said thanks

#21 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted June 18, 2016 - 12:54 PM

Been having a closer look at the box set up with the cover off and something struck me as odd. The oil level /filler hole is way below the level of the main gear train. Essentially what this means is the main train is perhaps not adequately lubricated especially if left standing for long periods like mine does and is perhaps not adequately lubricated even in use as it relies on the crown wheel to throw the oil around.

When I've rebuilt it I'll have uprated the oil seals and will be putting in an extra pint to ensure the main train runs in oil before I close down the cover. I think I'll probably have to add a breather which is easy to do but am convinced it will then be very quiet !
  • Bolens800uk said thank you

#22 29 Chev ONLINE  

29 Chev
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 63590
  • 3,170 Thanks
  • 1,219 posts
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Posted June 18, 2016 - 05:19 PM

If it is the same transmission set up as a 1050 (which looking at the parts breakdown it appears to be) the reverse gear (item #113) located in a well below the input shaft, the three gear cluster,the two gears that are attached to the input shaft and hi low shaft as well as the hi low cluster should be turning whenever the input shaft is turning I believe.  The bottom reverse gear should be throwing up gear lube to provide some lubrication.  I agree that the front bearings are not immersed and as a result the gear lube could drain off over a long period of time.  I have seen some 1050's that did not have any lubrication holes in the three gear cluster to allow gear lube easier access to the needle bearings pressed inside at each end - the later models appear to have them.  If you look at the right front corner of the case there should be a breather vent (item #31 in the parts break down) - it is a form of bronze filter similar to the material some of the fuel filters used in early 1960's General Motors cars used.  

Attached Thumbnails

  • 6 Gear Lube Added.jpg

  • heliosuk and Bolens800uk have said thanks

#23 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted June 19, 2016 - 12:34 PM

Thanks' Chev for the picture and advice. 

 

I have same said breather but often wondered about it as there is no inlet hole in the casing so cannot see how it works. I have a similar set up on the fuel pump but that has an inlet to it. Why is the main shaft end bearing so far out of the casing in your picture?

 

Why does the main gear train rely on the reverse transfer gear to throw the oil given the infrequent use of reverse? It all seems very odd and very poor design compared to the rest of the tractor.Without doubt I'll be upping the oil level to reflect modern conditions in an automotive box. At least then it will be significantly quieter.


  • Bolens800uk said thank you

#24 29 Chev ONLINE  

29 Chev
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 63590
  • 3,170 Thanks
  • 1,219 posts
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Posted June 19, 2016 - 06:30 PM

Thanks' Chev for the picture and advice. 

 

I have same said breather but often wondered about it as there is no inlet hole in the casing so cannot see how it works. I have a similar set up on the fuel pump but that has an inlet to it. Why is the main shaft end bearing so far out of the casing in your picture?

 

 

The breather is made out of a bronze material that is pressed into the hole in the case - you can remove it if you wish to verify this.  I usually use a pair of vise grips and a small socket - place the socket underneath and set a short piece of round stock that is slightly smaller in diameter than the bronze filter on top and then squeeze the vise grip jaws closed after you place the one jaw at the bottom of the socket and the other jaw on top of the short piece of round stock ( a short roll pin or stove bolt would work as well).  You could use a "C" clamp as well as it may be easier - be careful that the bronze filter does not fall into the transmission  - place a shop towel under it to catch it.  Once you have it out you can clean it with brake cleaner and blow it out with compressed air - careful it does not escape on you.  As you can see in the pictures I have posted this time that the gasket does not cover the vent area as it should have a cut out in it - this leaves the area open to the atmosphere but still very well protected from dirt and water in my opinion.  I have also included a picture of both my 1050 transmission and the rear end bearing appears to be in the same location on both them.  I have never removed the rear bearings or shaft so that was the way both tractors were set up when I got them and have had one for about 10 years and the other one for 16 and not had a problem with either.  One transmission is very quiet and the other has a good whine to it in Hi range and been that way for years.  I thought the noisey one had a bad front bearing on the Hi Lo shaft as that was the only reason I could think that it was noisey in Hi range.  My logic was that end would be loaded more when it is doing the driving of the three gear cluster - I removed it and it had a little roughness to it so I replaced it and checked other components in there at the same time and everything else looked ok so I put it back together with the new bearing but it still has a whine the same as it did before I replaced the bearing.  If you check out the Tube Frame repair manual it shows what gears are in play in various gears as well as neutral.  I eliminated the input shaft and the output shaft as being the cause of the whine as they both turn at the same speed whether in Hi or Lo range and thus should be noisey in both ranges if they were the cause in my opinion.  

 

"Why does the main gear train rely on the reverse transfer gear to throw the oil given the infrequent use of reverse? It all seems very odd and very poor design compared to the rest of the tractor. Without doubt I'll be upping the oil level to reflect modern conditions in an automotive box. At least then it will be significantly quieter."

 

The gear that I spoke of is in the well and should always be turning whenever the input shaft is turning regardless of whether the transmission is in neutral, a forward gear or reverse and as a result should always be throwing gear lube around - you can see it in the one picture where the input shaft and three gear cluster have been removed.  It is driven off of the middle gear of the three gear cluster if memory serves me correctly which should always be turning as well whenever the input shaft is turning. I am not saying that increasing the gear lube level is a bad idea but I am not sure it is necessary and may not make things much quieter.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Both 1050 Transmssions.jpg

  • LPBolens and Bruce Dorsi have said thanks

#25 29 Chev ONLINE  

29 Chev
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 63590
  • 3,170 Thanks
  • 1,219 posts
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Posted June 19, 2016 - 06:57 PM

What you could do to see how well things are getting lubricated is remove the transmission and remove the two wheels after you have the transmission assembly supported - I use an engine stand as I do not bend well.  Once you have done that you could make up an adaptor out of a piece of heater hose and a couple of hose clamps and drive the input shaft with an electric drill with the cover off at a slow speed and observe what happens to the gear lube at the proper level both in neutral as well as in various gears (could put a clear garbage bag or plastic sheet over top so you do not get gear lube all over).  I believe a piece of 5/8' or 3/4" heater hose should slide over the splines of the input shaft and then you can use a 3/8" extension clamped in the chuck of the drill ( male end in the drill) and use a hose clamp at each end to secure the hose. You may even be able to use a stethoscope to determine where any excess noise is in the gear train - just suggestions.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 14 Ready To Start Cleaning 2.jpg
  • 16 Cleaned With Dishwasher Soap And Water 2.jpg

Edited by 29 Chev, June 19, 2016 - 08:38 PM.

  • heliosuk said thank you

#26 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted June 20, 2016 - 03:13 PM

That sounds a good idea Chev. I'll cover the top with some Perspex to watch the oil distribution. I'll try to borrow a sound meter from work to get some objective measurement data. Might take a few weeks though I do have some holiday due.


  • Bolens800uk said thank you

#27 BolensChrisUK OFFLINE  

BolensChrisUK
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 77828
  • 287 Thanks
  • 151 posts
  • Location: Sussex England

Posted June 20, 2016 - 04:36 PM

Love the way you support the gearbox

 

I have an engine / gearbox stand & a welder :D


  • 29 Chev said thank you

#28 29 Chev ONLINE  

29 Chev
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 63590
  • 3,170 Thanks
  • 1,219 posts
  • Location: Ontario Canada

Posted June 20, 2016 - 05:10 PM

Love the way you support the gearbox

 

I have an engine / gearbox stand & a welder :D

Thanks - a bit of steel and a welder and you can turn an engine stand into an excellent portable work bench to support a number of things.  I do not work well in a bent over position for any length of time so the engine stand served as a safe way to support and work on the transmission at various angles as well as paint it.  I also use it to support other things - I modified the head support of the engine stand so the head is ninety degrees to the upright.  I then made an extension that served to support the front of the 1050 and used it as a rotisserie while I put a 1050 back together.  I have also used it to support the 900 seat pans while I painted them as it allowed me to turn the seat over and paint both the bottom and the top edge.  And some day if I ever get enough time, money and ambition I hope to rebuild the Wisconsin TRA10D that came with my one 1050 and it will be mounted to the stand while I work on it. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Front Axle Support Mounted 1.jpg
  • Front Axle Support Mounted 2.jpg
  • Modified Engine Stand 1.jpg
  • Modified Engine Stand 2.jpg
  • Modified Engine Stand 3.jpg
  • 1 Seat Mounted To Engine Stand.jpg
  • 2 Seat Rotated.jpg
  • 3 Seat Rotated 180.jpg

  • heliosuk and Bolens800uk have said thanks

#29 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted July 25, 2016 - 05:26 PM

Well have installed my re built box tonight. I filled to the box to the correct level with the cover off and let it settle. No way is this correct. I appreciate what others have said about watching the spray pattern but where these tractors are concerned if they are laid up or little used the  lubricant level is far from desired so have added an extra pint (500ml) to get to the level I think it should be,

 

End float on the main input shaft was the main problem to get over which has been shimmed now.

 

Dry run and selection doesn't seem to b e a problem.

 

So  hopefully see if I've fixed it over the next few days.


  • Bolens800uk said thank you

#30 heliosuk OFFLINE  

heliosuk
  • Member
  • Member No: 59196
  • 87 Thanks
  • 91 posts
  • Location: Cheshire UK

Posted August 13, 2016 - 12:55 PM

Well first outing today with re-built box and additional oil. Low range noise is considerably reduced but high range in 3rd still whines somewhat which is typical of a straight cut box. Will go for  run in the fields tomorrow as I think it's down to the mesh of the repaired gear teeth spinning faster. Once they bed in I'm convinced the box will have an acceptable level of noise. Overall though it is a lot quieter with the additional oil. Have also installed some rare earth magnets on the drain plug so if after some hours of running that is coated will probably prove out the issue. Makes fitting the plug difficult though lol!!


  • Bolens800uk said thank you




Top