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What does "Original" mean to you?


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#16 Auburn David OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 09:42 AM

I am just happy if mine works..I have parts on Frankin tractor off everything you can think of..course I know you guys restore and show your machines...mine are for work.Might add its getting close to digging some holes and moving some dirt..Drive plate kit installed and cyls are being rebuilt now.


Edited by Auburn David, March 13, 2016 - 09:43 AM.

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#17 mtoney OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 09:59 AM

To me it meants unmodified, factory exhaust, paint with only minor touchups ect.  Engine overhauls can fall into being original as at the age of most older GT's, atleast 1 engine overhaul is common. If it has the original engine, that runs and has not been rebuilt, then you have that rare bird that commands a bit higher price.   The huge rise in prices will not stop for awhile to come, the hobby has taken off.  The more rare attachments, tractors and models will command the big $$.  And with that comes the folks that think that just because its a JD 111, its worth the same price as a mint 110rf.  Look at it this way, its free entertainment!  Mike


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#18 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 10:04 AM

Troy as usual hit it out of the park with his reply!

 There was another thread on here not long ago that was along the lines of this, here's my post with some common terms used:

 

I consider the word "Stock" to mean original parts and no modifications along the way, IE Cuts in the hood use of improper parts ect. I still consider the machine stock if it has replacement parts that are either OEM or the exact same as OEM spec, for example could have had a different muffler pipe replaced with an original at some point in its 40 years I would consider it stock.

 

"All Original" means it has everything that came with it when it left the showroom floor.

 

Any repairs made your self such as additional metal added , modifications or 'Upgrades' with other model parts then its not stock or original IMO

 

For example: :D

 

Stock

DSCN5589.JPG

 

All parts are to original specs however some have been replaced , with New, NOS or used time period correct parts and may have been painted, a bracket welded ect.

 

"All Original"

 

DSCN5481.JPG

 

All parts are original to the machine, nothing replaced painted or repaired except maybe a belt or two in its life

 

"Modified" / Repaired / not original

DSCN5522.JPG

 

 

Some Parts are from a different model (Fender) , Homemade muffler, Homemade rear hitch, Repairs have been made such as welding broken linkages ect.

 

 

 

"Hack Job"

Any time a part of the tractor that has been chopped, drilled , cut or removed to fit non OEM components to the machine, different levels of these are out there

 

 

 

I agree with you Troy,Ive been noticing that a lot lately.I really like when they are selling parts that are still available at the dealer for more than what the dealer charges.

These people have no clue how to describe what they are selling.They have something from mid 60's and they think it's gold.

 

I agree, I have seen this too where people are selling USED belts,bearings, and even OIL SEALS for double what I sell them for new! I feel bad for the guy who gets suckered into buying that stuff!


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#19 MGP59DB OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 10:12 AM

It's funny - I was just outside this morning and spent a couple hours cleaning up my latest acquisition.

Looking it over I noticed David Bradley embossed into the main drive belt .

I was pretty taken with the idea that this is 100% original . and everything is there except for a guard rail that should be on the mower deck output .

As much as I want to make it look nicer . I can't touch it . It would be a crime to change anything .

The thing is I bought it for myself to enjoy while I am around  and if I want to put racing stripes on it and ghost flames It is no sweat.

024.JPG

So , though I have never been faced with this dilemma before , 'Original' came into play , I decided to not change one thing about it , give it the spark it needs , replace a couple of belts that are shot , and enjoy it the way it is. The 53 years have been kind to this machine.    

 


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#20 toppop52 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 10:34 AM

Original means everything that came on it hardware wise, including tires and belts, even the oil filter. Once anything at all is changed, even if identical,  it then becomes stock, but no longer original.


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#21 Gtractor OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 10:34 AM

A term you don't hear anymore is "restored to original" where something is restored but all reasonable efforts were made to keep it as-new.   That would account for something that is listed as original but has clearly been restored.

Then you find something that has been cleaned and repainted to look nice and someone thinks that its "restored".  I'd call that "cosmetically restored"

Oh well,  its the thrill of the chase.

TV shows like Pickers and American Restoration are the number 1 problem causing these ridiculous prices we see on Craigslist.


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#22 MGP59DB OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 10:39 AM

Original means everything that came on it hardware wise, including tires and belts, even the oil filter. Once anything at all is changed, even if identical,  it then becomes stock, but no longer original.

So basically there is no such thing as original ? If you change the oil it is no longer original? Original air in the tires?


Edited by MGP59DB, March 13, 2016 - 10:40 AM.

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#23 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 10:58 AM

In the first post of this thread, there are two, I believe John Deere, 110 tractors for sale at a high price. Dose it not depend somewhat as to where the location is as to how prices are determined. Where I live, PEI, Canada, I doubt that there is a 110 here on PEI. So, if you are a collector on PEI and you happened to find a 110 , and it was priced high, would you buy it or not ?
I believe that I may be the only person on PEI to have a 1970 John Deere 140 H3. Is it worth more because of that ? A collector may pay the asking price, but the person just lookin for a tractor to cut grass with, may not. Just some thoughts I had, only opinions.

Noel
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#24 KC9KAS OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 11:11 AM

And to add to the aggregation, the word VINTAGE  is waaaaaay over used!

Just go to a consignment shop or flea market!


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#25 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 11:23 AM

We are all victims of the success of the hobby. That forces prices up as more people search for a dwindling resource. You also get folks who have the $ to buy anything they want regardless of price. Troy, it seems to me that if you stay true to your principals when furthering your hobby you are doing all you can to preserve the integrity that you demand. Others can and will make their own judgements and the result will be felt in the asking prices. It's unfortunate, but only through the actions of many can the market be influenced. In general, as long as there is demand there will be price increases for a decreasing resource like classic GTs


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#26 johndeereelfman OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 01:37 PM

In the first post of this thread, there are two, I believe John Deere, 110 tractors for sale at a high price. Dose it not depend somewhat as to where the location is as to how prices are determined. Where I live, PEI, Canada, I doubt that there is a 110 here on PEI. So, if you are a collector on PEI and you happened to find a 110 , and it was priced high, would you buy it or not ?
I believe that I may be the only person on PEI to have a 1970 John Deere 140 H3. Is it worth more because of that ? A collector may pay the asking price, but the person just lookin for a tractor to cut grass with, may not. Just some thoughts I had, only opinions.

Noel

 

Noel,

 

Here is an idea as to what I get so frustrated over. I'll post two of my tractors below, but try and give you an example of what I'm seeing on Craigslist in our area, and sometimes on eBay for that matter, just so you can maybe see the difference.

 

Seller #1:

1966 John Deere 112H for sale. Very Rare as there were only 1,000 units produced that year. Has been restored 8 years ago using authentic John Deere paint, new Hapco reproduction decals, seat cushion, and floor mats. Has the original cigarette lighter and all factory installed headlights and tail light work. This tractor has NOS John Deere hubcaps and belts. The Tecumseh HH100 10 horse motor has been rebuilt with all new factory parts, and hasn't been run since installed back into the tractor. The gas tank is like new inside, and the transmission has been gone through and shifts like it should. The only thing on this tractor that isn't factory, other than the reproduction Hapco items, is the front grille emblem that I added myself as a way of identifying the tractor as one of my restorations. You won't be disappointed with this tractor. I'm wanting $2,500.00 firm. Located in Reading, PA and is sold where is. No shipping so don't ask! See attached pictures for details:

 

1966 112H 002.JPG 1966 112H 001.JPG

1966 112H 003.JPG 1966 112H 004.JPG

1966 112H 005.JPG 1966 112H 006.JPG

1966 112H 007.JPG

 

Seller #2:

Very Rare vintage 110 for sale. There were only 1,000 of these made and now is your chance to own one. This tractor has the very rare narrow wheel package, and the hard to find rear lifting set up. This tractor is unmolested and has never been repainted. It is completely original right down to the motor. Tractor starts right up and runs smooth with the turn of the key, even after sitting all winter. This tractor comes with a 38" mower deck, although not shown, and is so quiet you won't even know it running. Selling it for $1,500.00. My lose is your gain, as I need it gone quickly as I need the money for a new baby on the way. Will be a long time before you find another one in this condition. Located in Reading, PA, and could possibly help with delivery for a fee.

 

Tractors 026.JPG Tractors 027.JPG

Tractors 028.JPG Tractors 029.JPG

 

 

Now, with both sellers listing shown, let's compare to see which one is more in the lines of ballpark pricing. Since most of you who aren't John Deere collectors won't be able to tell one round fender from another, I'll explain what I see when it comes to expertise: 

 

Seller #1 has a very nice tractor for sale, and from what we can see, he is pretty accurate when it comes to explaining the credentials of the tractor. Yes, the tractor is a 1966 112H, yes there were only 1,000 units produced in 1966, and yes, the light package and cigarette lighter are original equipment. The hubcaps could be factory NOS hubcaps, however Cub Cadet used the same type, so how do we know they are authentic John Deere's? Well due to his details of explaining the tractor, I would take the man to his word. Why would he need to lie about them? Anyway, although the tractor looks very nice, is a limited production run, and seems as though you wouldn't need to do anything to it, I wouldn't consider the tractor as rare and would be hard pressed to spend that kind of money on it. I'd maybe go as high as $1,500.00 for it. 

 

Seller #2 has a very commonly found 1967 110, and considering that the seller says it's rare, there were actually 35,000 of these units produced. The narrow wheel package is not rare either, and can be easily found if you are wanting a set. With this tractor year I might add, the serial number discloses what type of wheel package the tractor was shipped with from the factory, so the narrow wheels that he has shown, may or may not be factory issued. The hard to find rear lifting set up, is actually hard to find, however I don't believe it's worth a price increase just because it's included. The seller states that the tractor is completely original and has never been painted, although we can clearly see that the engine paint does not match that of the tractor paint. Was the engine replaced at some point, or was it rebuilt and painted before being reinstalled into the tractor? Since the tractor itself doesn't have the correct shade of John Deere green on it, I'm pretty sure we can determine that this tractor was in fact repainted at some point, so now we must determine how trustworthy this seller really is. The seller states that a mower deck comes with the tractor, and is very quiet. There is no picture included for us to judge for ourselves on the condition, and through all of my years of collecting, I have yet to come across a quiet mower deck for these old tractors. This seller is really trying his best to sell this tractor, and it's clear he doesn't know what he's talking about. As for his asking price, $1,500.00 is extremely high for this tractor. This tractor and deck to me, isn't worth more than $350.00. It's very common, as been touched up at some point, and the seller isn't quite as knowledgeable as he wants us to believe. Oh, and it won't take very long to find another one in better condition and cheaper than the one he has posted.

 

Two cases of Craigslist examples. One somewhat legit, the other way out in left field. Both however, way off the mark when it comes to pricing. However, both sellers are going by what they see other tractors of this style selling for, and think they both can ask whatever they want to when it comes to pricing.

 

Just as reminder, the two examples of sellers that I posted are made up and are not legitimate listings on Craigslist. The pictures are of tractors from my collection, and are not for sale. Please don't contact me wanting to know more information about the sellers, or where these tractors are located. They were only used as examples! 


Edited by johndeereelfman, March 13, 2016 - 01:38 PM.

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#27 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 03:48 PM

Don't worry, I am not interested in those tractors of yours or the fake selling ads. Original in my mind is as it comes out of the factory, as soon as you put gas in it, it is no longer factory original. Just my opinion, everybody's is different.

Noel
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#28 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 06:25 PM

A term you don't hear anymore is "restored to original" where something is restored but all reasonable efforts were made to keep it as-new.   That would account for something that is listed as original but has clearly been restored.

Then you find something that has been cleaned and repainted to look nice and someone thinks that its "restored".  I'd call that "cosmetically restored"

Oh well,  its the thrill of the chase.

TV shows like Pickers and American Restoration are the number 1 problem causing these ridiculous prices we see on Craigslist.

I don't think the TV shows has anything to do with the pricing as they very rarely have anything along the GT line.  I think a lot of the prices is from the person that buys a GT at an auction or where ever cause it was going to cheap.  They had never seen one before, so they think it is rare and try to make a killing on it.


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#29 wvbuzzmaster OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 07:06 PM

I have one more comment to add here.
Every other time I hear the words "overpriced garden tractor", it is either brand new, John Deere, or Cub Cadet. I would like to point out the reasons with minimal overall bashing.

Brand New: We all know the new ones are 90% junk anyway.

John Deere: The new JDs are overpriced and don't hold up; so the old ones that are still around because they were built better must be worth just as much as new ones because JD is still in business, therefore no one minds spending more for them. (Buying the name)

Cub Cadet: The pulling guys use these and are willing to spend thousands on parts to be competitive, so that makes the tractor worth more because the pulling guys have money.
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#30 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted March 13, 2016 - 07:47 PM

All this boils down to one thing, what YOU are willing to pay.  Look the tractor over in person unless you KNOW the seller.  Figure what YOU want to pay for it and make that offer.  You will either buy the tractor or have a nice ride home.


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