Jump to content

Nominations for Tractor of the Month
Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

1919 Midwest Utilitor tractor


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#16 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 19, 2015 - 09:51 PM

Hectic week [again] at work but I got some play time Wednesday evening. 

Stood the tractor on its face.  That seemed like a better idea than laying down looking up into a dark hole.   With such long handlebars it was easy to tip. 

Removed the plate on the bottom of the engine.  Rod cap is the correct direction.  Removed the cotter pins and rod cap.  The engine has stood with water in it for [aparently] decades.  The rod journal has a few deep pits from corrosion but it appears to have been turned in the rebuild and the babbitt is absolutely new.  The babbitt hasn't been hot and no sign of it melting to the crankshaft.  Nothing sticking up to grab, catch or drag.  I went to the local engine rebuilding machine shop the next day and asked about the condition I found.  These guys know about antique engines and frequently get to work on hit-N-miss and flywheel engines. 

I respect their opinions. 

They told me that pits in the journal surface will just hold more oil and with the engine not doing any work and only running a few hours per year that should be just fine for a long time. 

I couldn't see anything about the main bearings through the little access hole.  It was a trick to even get the rod cap out!  :(

 

Put everything back together and gave it all new oil, overfilling it by quite a bit.  I noticed that if the oil level is in the middle of the sight glass and the tractor is level,  it seems to me that there is very little oil on top of that access plate that the rod cap dipper gets its oil from.  Any sludge laying on that plate and it drives the sludge right into the rod bearing. 

Started the engine and it ran great for about 2 minutes then it tightened up again.  

I guess the next step is to pull the head. I'm thinking the cylinder is set up too tight.   With any oil at all it really doesn't run long enough to build any heat in the lower end.

 

The last ATV I top-ended I made the cylinder too tight and it seized when it warmed up the first few times it ran.  With a little run time it came out of it and was OK. 

Kind of afraid to keep trying that with this one since Moog probably doesn't carry replacement parts.  :poke:


  • wvbuzzmaster, Lauber1, superaben and 1 other said thanks

#17 Lauber1 OFFLINE  

Lauber1

    DB restorer

  • Super Moderator
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 4926
  • 3,456 Thanks
  • 2,801 posts
  • Location: S.E.IOWA

Posted July 20, 2015 - 04:37 PM

I was wondering about the ring gap or if the ring even fit the piston grooves correctly. Sounds like someone over hauled it and couldn't maybe find all the correct parts.


  • Gtractor said thank you

#18 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 25, 2015 - 09:57 PM

Update:

 

Pulled the head this week.  With the piston at the top,  and just by eyeballing it,  it looks like its tight on one side of the cylinder and the other side had a very small gap.  At this point I'm thinking the bore could be egg shaped.  With the rust pits in the crank journal I figure this thing was locked up tighter than Fort Knox before it was restored. 

Many years ago when I played with outboard engines I heated the cylinder on one too much trying to get it unstuck and egg shaped the cylinder.  :(  It was a good learning experience.

 I used the pickup with the Tommy Lift liftgate and loaded-er up for a little ride.  Next day when I got off work I headed for the machine shop.  Asked to have the cylinder measured for out-of-round and/or any and all opinons an expert could offer. 

Top of the piston is stamped 3.496 and the guy says the cylinder is pretty true and reasonably round with .010 of even wear.  No binding and with that much wear it won't bind up when it gets hot from running.  I noticed there was no ring groove at the top of the cylinder.  Musta cut it out and then been honed quite a bit to measure that much wear and be reasonably true. 

His recommendation is to tear into the bottom end "cause nothing up here is locking it up"

The entire bottom end of the crankcase unbolts from the top half [I assume right through the crankshaft's mains] 

That seems like a real involved teardown that I wasn't wanting to do. 

I've also thought about putting the head back on and starting it once again - running until it gets tight - then without backing it up and freeing it,  removing the rod cap again and seeing if that loosens it up.   If not I'll know its the mains.  I assume they are babbitt like the rod. 


  • olcowhand, Alc, Lauber1 and 1 other said thanks

#19 Cvans ONLINE  

Cvans

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 5412
  • 4,522 Thanks
  • 5,033 posts
  • Location: Eastern SD.

Posted July 25, 2015 - 10:13 PM

Did you plastigauge the rod to see how much clearance you have? Sounds llike something is running at less than minimum clearance.


  • Gtractor said thank you

#20 DougT ONLINE  

DougT

    Dog Approved

  • Super Moderator
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 584
  • 5,736 Thanks
  • 4,290 posts
  • Location: north central Ohio

Posted July 25, 2015 - 11:18 PM

The ring end gap was OK? How tight does this get? Will it stop the engine or just start lugging hard? When it is tight, check the freeplay in the fan and mag drive shaft. The mains and also the clutch/drive pinion shaft is also on babbitt. The cam shaft is up high and it rides on bronze bushings. Do you know any of the history of this machine. did the previous owner attend any local shows that you go to? I'm wondering if its been tight all along or if it is something that got dry from setting.


  • Gtractor and Lauber1 have said thanks

#21 Alc ONLINE  

Alc

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1094
  • 5,459 Thanks
  • 6,629 posts
  • Location: Bangor Pa

Posted July 26, 2015 - 05:50 AM

If this engine was honed to straighten out any bore taper and .010 oversize rings installed would the ring gap have to be made to the widest spec.given say if the spec. was .004-.008 Would you need to go to .008 because using oversize rings on a standard piston expose more of the ring to combustion chamber ? Just wondering
  • Gtractor and Lauber1 have said thanks

#22 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 26, 2015 - 09:35 AM

Did you plastigauge the rod to see how much clearance you have? Sounds llike something is running at less than minimum clearance.

I did not.  When I saw how good the babbitt looked I figured the problem wasn't from the rod. 

Anythings possible and actually measuring the clearance is definately a good idea.  THANX!!



#23 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 26, 2015 - 10:13 AM

The ring end gap was OK? How tight does this get? Will it stop the engine or just start lugging hard? When it is tight, check the freeplay in the fan and mag drive shaft. The mains and also the clutch/drive pinion shaft is also on babbitt. The cam shaft is up high and it rides on bronze bushings. Do you know any of the history of this machine. did the previous owner attend any local shows that you go to? I'm wondering if its been tight all along or if it is something that got dry from setting.

I didn't pull the piston out of the bore so no idea on the ring end gap. 

The engine will labor,  bog down and die when it gets tight.  It does not stop suddenly or with a bang.  If it was running at slow idle I can grab the flywheel right then and back it up and its loose without any cool down time.  One time I had it running a little faster and it locked tight enough that I had to pull the wheel off so i could get a pipe wrench on the end of the crankshaft to back it up.  That one made me nervous but in 1/4 turn it was free.  I suppose the two flywheels weigh at least 100 pounds.  Thats a lot of inertia to stop.

I didn't get any history on the machine.  It had been sitting in a private museum for many years.  The owner was getting up in years and had an auction.  I don't think he displayed at local tractor shows, at least the garden tractors, because I would have remembered seeing these treasures.  I go within 6-8 miles of his place in the company truck often.  Might have to whip a visit on him. 

Either way it looks like I'm splitting the crankcase.


  • Lauber1 said thank you

#24 DougT ONLINE  

DougT

    Dog Approved

  • Super Moderator
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 584
  • 5,736 Thanks
  • 4,290 posts
  • Location: north central Ohio

Posted July 26, 2015 - 10:39 AM

That description doesn't sound like a tight bearing. It wouldn't come loose just backing it up a bit. Look at the mag drive shft a little closer. They were common to get sloppy. Maybe its binding in the gears? I'll have to think on this. I thinnk it woould be better to try and narrow it down before disassembly so you know what you're looking for.


  • Gtractor and superaben have said thanks

#25 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 26, 2015 - 08:26 PM

Thanks so much guys for the suggestions and ideas! 

Don't suppose its a real big deal to bust-er open and see whats going on but I already have a bunch of stuff torn apart and projects scattered everywhere.  I hate the thought of diving deep into another one.

This afternoon I put the head back on,  filled the radiator and let-er rip.  This time it only ran about a minute before things tightened up. 

 

Its getting worse.   :(

 

When it stopped I drained the oil and went to the house for that much revered Sunday afternoon nap. 

Back at it, I once again stood it on its nose and pulled the access plate.  The engine stopped with the piston at the bottom of the stroke.  Don't figure thats revevant to anything but it was much easier to remove the rod cap that way.  The counter weights on the crank would have made it hard [if not impossible] to get to the rod bolts had it been at or near the top.

Rod cap came right off and I easily pushed the rod/piston assembly up the bore.  With the rod off the crank the flywheels were still tight. That definately eliminated those pieces from being bound up. 

 

I guess I'm going in......


  • Alc and Lauber1 have said thanks

#26 Lauber1 OFFLINE  

Lauber1

    DB restorer

  • Super Moderator
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 4926
  • 3,456 Thanks
  • 2,801 posts
  • Location: S.E.IOWA

Posted July 26, 2015 - 09:00 PM

well I guess if  you get tired of playing with it, bring it up to Scotland county and ill come take it away.


  • Gtractor said thank you

#27 DougT ONLINE  

DougT

    Dog Approved

  • Super Moderator
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 584
  • 5,736 Thanks
  • 4,290 posts
  • Location: north central Ohio

Posted July 26, 2015 - 09:28 PM

Does the mag drive shaft still have play?  Another thought would be the clutch forks. They have brass dogs that ride in a shannel in the clutch. If they are tight, it would try to pull the levers into the crankcase. Do the tops of the levers still look parallel to the crankcase or are they trying to push up or down. Do they still work free? Is it trying to open a valve? Do you get any play in the gear lash between the crank and clutch gear?



#28 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 26, 2015 - 11:32 PM

I forgot to mention the mag's driveshaft has a little play even with the engine tight. 

 

On the other questions, Doug,  I'll have to check those out.

One thing I did notice is the clutch levers are terrible hard to pull back.  I know they'd be working against the springs but its excessive.  May just need some lube in the linkages.

 

Jeff,   Thanks for the offer but the closest I'll be tomorrow is Lee County. :wave:


  • Lauber1 said thank you

#29 Alc ONLINE  

Alc

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1094
  • 5,459 Thanks
  • 6,629 posts
  • Location: Bangor Pa

Posted July 27, 2015 - 05:19 AM

Kris would it be too much trouble taking pictures as you work on your tractor ? I'll probably  never see one let alone the internal/external  working of this machine ,


  • Gtractor said thank you

#30 Gtractor ONLINE  

Gtractor

    The Tractor Hoarder

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 782
  • 6,632 Thanks
  • 3,922 posts
  • Location: Chillicothe, MO

Posted July 27, 2015 - 04:01 PM

Kris would it be too much trouble taking pictures as you work on your tractor ? I'll probably  never see one let alone the internal/external  working of this machine ,

It'd be a lot of trouble but you are worth it!  :smilewink:

I'll be sure to take some.


  • DougT, Alc and Lauber1 have said thanks




Top