Jump to content

Nominations for Tractor of the Month
Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

Using nickle/copper brake line as hydraulic line in tractor?


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 Tennblue59 OFFLINE  

Tennblue59

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 6000
  • 450 Thanks
  • 522 posts
  • Location: North east Tenessee

Posted July 05, 2015 - 09:16 AM

I recently had to replace a rusted brake line in my truck (arghhhhh!!!).  I used new style nicopper lines and they were much easier to work with!

 

If (like me) you had never heard of nicopper, it is an alloy line made out of nickel and copper (as opposed to steel). DOT approved for brake line use and speced to over 3000 psi working. Softer to bend and flare than steel, and doesn't rust like steel lines would. You can flare ends with a cheaper $30 tool instead of a $100+ flare tool.

 

Got me thinking......

 

Could it be used for implement lines in a gt? Tubing is available from most auto parts stores in 1/4 inch tube. My reference chart says that 1/4 inch tube in a gt level pressure use should flow 2-3 gpm. If all your doing is moving a hydraulic ram (like for a plow blade or blower lift), is that enough?

 

While not available locally (usually), you can order the stuff in 3/8 size, which would flow around 8gpm - that SHOULD be enough flow for any cylinder we would use, right?

 

Not sure what threading is required on the nut, say to fit a deere 318, but jic fittings in many sizes are available. 

 

If you had to custom make lines (like for me 316 to 318 diesel conversion), or were adding power steering, or a second set of implement plugs, could you use the easier to form/flair nicopper? Not for the high flow lines of course, but for the impellent lines...

 

Anybody tried it before? Or have an opinion?


  • tinbender7 and boyscout862 have said thanks

#2 olcowhand ONLINE  

olcowhand

    Red Tractor Nut & Diesel Addict

  • Staff Admin
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Sponsor
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 20
  • 35,651 Thanks
  • 29,840 posts
  • Location: South Central Kentucky

Posted July 05, 2015 - 09:24 AM

If rated for 3000psi, then it would work fine for either gt lift circuit or added hydraulic pumps. Gt charge pumps only run up to 900psi. Hydraulic pumps usually 2500 or less but can be set to lower pressure.
  • tinbender7 and boyscout862 have said thanks

#3 ckjakline OFFLINE  

ckjakline

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 6073
  • 1,080 Thanks
  • 1,094 posts
  • Location: Lititz,Pa

Posted July 05, 2015 - 09:26 AM

i know the 140s use steel lines but i think they are 1/4" or maybe 5/16 line.I wouldn't see why the nicopper lines wouldn't work as long as the flow and pressure can be met in that size,


  • boyscout862 said thank you

#4 toppop52 OFFLINE  

toppop52
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 54420
  • 3,510 Thanks
  • 3,387 posts
  • Location: Lower Eastern Shore of Maryland

Posted July 05, 2015 - 12:00 PM

Nickel copper will work fine and much easier to work with, if you shop you can buy 25' of 1/4" for around $27-$35.

Edited by toppop52, July 05, 2015 - 12:01 PM.


#5 Chris11 OFFLINE  

Chris11

    old Member

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 1601
  • 1,626 Thanks
  • 944 posts
  • Location: Hudson Mass

Posted July 05, 2015 - 12:01 PM

I use in all the cars where I work there is all different sizes. But I have had problems with the stuff I get from napa. 3/16 brake line. The wall thickness verity's and cant get a good flair. I get all my line at a place called Fedhill here in mass. This is the same stuff they put in helicopters.. much better then the stuff the parts stores have.


  • Alc said thank you

#6 toppop52 OFFLINE  

toppop52
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 54420
  • 3,510 Thanks
  • 3,387 posts
  • Location: Lower Eastern Shore of Maryland

Posted July 05, 2015 - 01:14 PM

We haven't a problem with NAPA stuff here, but I'll keep an eye out, brakes are pretty important! :D



#7 Tennblue59 OFFLINE  

Tennblue59

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 6000
  • 450 Thanks
  • 522 posts
  • Location: North east Tenessee

Posted July 05, 2015 - 03:13 PM

Thanks Chris11, Fedhill is where I was looking as well - they have a web site. In fact, they even offer 1/2" nickel copper line!, but the bigger sizes get pricey! They also offer all sorts of hard to find fittings.

 

And I don't think I would want to try to hand-flare a pipe that big - at least not a steel one!!!


  • Alc and Chris11 have said thanks

#8 TUDOR OFFLINE  

TUDOR

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 915
  • 543 Thanks
  • 497 posts
  • Location: Sault Ste Marie, Ontario

Posted July 06, 2015 - 01:07 AM

Could it be used for implement lines in a gt? Tubing is available from most auto parts stores in 1/4 inch tube. My reference chart says that 1/4 inch tube in a gt level pressure use should flow 2-3 gpm. If all your doing is moving a hydraulic ram (like for a plow blade or blower lift), is that enough?

Was your reference chart perhaps for hoses?

 

Hoses are measured by their ID, tubing is measured by its OD. BIG difference!

 

Internal cross sectional areas:

 

1/4" hose.................... - 0.049 sq-in

 

1/4" x 0.035" wall tube. - 0.025 sq-in

 

3/8" x 0.039" wall tube. - 0.069 sq-in

 

GT's mostly use 3/8" tubing and 1/4" hose with -6 (3/8") terminations to save inventory and reduce restriction at the fittings.


Edited by TUDOR, July 06, 2015 - 01:26 AM.

  • MH81 and Alc have said thanks

#9 Alc ONLINE  

Alc

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1094
  • 5,458 Thanks
  • 6,627 posts
  • Location: Bangor Pa

Posted July 06, 2015 - 05:35 AM

Would you be able to get the soft tubing straight enough for exposed line ?  I've replaced brake lines , nothing above 1/4" but it was hard to make it straight from the coil , that compared to what the factory line looked line


  • MH81 and Chris11 have said thanks

#10 toppop52 OFFLINE  

toppop52
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 54420
  • 3,510 Thanks
  • 3,387 posts
  • Location: Lower Eastern Shore of Maryland

Posted July 06, 2015 - 06:28 AM

In my case perfection in appearance is way secondary to function at a reasonable effort and cost. But if I want it straight, I roll it out, put it in the groove of a piece of tongue and groove fence board I have. Stretch it tight and pull down on the ends gently, I can do up to 6' pieces.


  • Alc said thank you

#11 Tennblue59 OFFLINE  

Tennblue59

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 6000
  • 450 Thanks
  • 522 posts
  • Location: North east Tenessee

Posted July 06, 2015 - 10:08 AM

Tudor, I believe you are almost correct! I got mixed up with nomenclature - the specs I quoted were for hydraulic PIPE (working off of Mac's hydraulic reference page, among others...) not tube, but the error is the same!

 

Hydraulic pipe is measured by id, brake line apparently is measured by od. So, yes, flow would be less for 1/4 inch brake line than the tables I was referencing. They show up to 6 gpm in 1/4 inch pressure pipe, with 3 gpm for same diameter suction line (this seemed a little high to me?!?!?).  Minor offset is that nicopper wall thickness is 0.028, not 0.035, so there is a little more cross section than you listed, not that it makes a major difference!

 

Practical flow rate is impacted by fittings used, distance traveled, pressure at the head, and bends in the line. My head started to hurt...... 

 

I think, based on what I read, that you would still have 1 - 2 gpm at the end of your tractor using the 1/4 inch brake line. The big question, is that enough? That part I don't know.... A gallon is 3,800 ccs +/-. How many ccs does a typical gt lift cylinder displace? That would give you the time to cycle......

 

Of course, the nicopper line is also available in 5/16 and 3/8 od, so if 1/4 is not enough, could go larger, but slightly more $$$...



#12 TUDOR OFFLINE  

TUDOR

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 915
  • 543 Thanks
  • 497 posts
  • Location: Sault Ste Marie, Ontario

Posted July 07, 2015 - 01:18 AM

Tudor, I believe you are almost correct! I got mixed up with nomenclature - the specs I quoted were for hydraulic PIPE (working off of Mac's hydraulic reference page, among others...) not tube, but the error is the same!

 

Hydraulic pipe is measured by id, brake line apparently is measured by od. So, yes, flow would be less for 1/4 inch brake line than the tables I was referencing. They show up to 6 gpm in 1/4 inch pressure pipe, with 3 gpm for same diameter suction line (this seemed a little high to me?!?!?).  Minor offset is that nicopper wall thickness is 0.028, not 0.035, so there is a little more cross section than you listed, not that it makes a major difference!

 

Practical flow rate is impacted by fittings used, distance traveled, pressure at the head, and bends in the line. My head started to hurt...... 

 

I think, based on what I read, that you would still have 1 - 2 gpm at the end of your tractor using the 1/4 inch brake line. The big question, is that enough? That part I don't know.... A gallon is 3,800 ccs +/-. How many ccs does a typical gt lift cylinder displace? That would give you the time to cycle......

 

Of course, the nicopper line is also available in 5/16 and 3/8 od, so if 1/4 is not enough, could go larger, but slightly more $$$...

There's the secret. Avoid headaches. Use what the engineers that designed these things used. They already did all the math.

 

Schedule 40 hydraulic pipe has an OD of 0.540, 0.088 wall, and ID of 0.364 for a cross section area of 0.104 sq-in. Twice as much as 1/4" hose.

 

Pipes are manufactured to a specific OD for each nominal size, no matter what the wall thickness happens to be. The nominal size is not related directly to any specific dimension of the pipe.

 

Tubing is manufactured to a specific dimension OD, with optional wall thicknesses. The nominal size is the OD.

 

Hose is manufactured to a specific ID with varying materials and braiding layers that give it pressure ratings and chemical handling properties. The nominal size is the ID.

 

You obviously like playing with math as I do, but sometimes I draw the line. Even though Canada has switched to the metric system, I still use the English system that I was taught 60+ years ago. I'll willingly allow you to do the conversions.  :D

 

I US gallon = 231 cu-in

 

A typical 2x4 implement lift cylinder uses 12.566 cu-in of fluid on the extension stroke.

 

Try this nomograph for flow rates of hoses.


Edited by TUDOR, July 07, 2015 - 01:22 AM.

  • MH81, Bruce Dorsi and Tennblue59 have said thanks




Top