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Which GT's have real hydraulics?


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#61 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted April 05, 2011 - 04:33 PM

He claims that he wants to be able to quickly install and remove this entire setup at will since he only needs the tiller twice each year.


I won't go on mtf to read the original post due to other feelings but needless to say, you and I both know that hard piping under the tractor could have been done to be both out of the way and the whole assembly minus the hard piping being easily removable by the use of quick disconnects. Hopefully nobody or the owner gets hurt, some will have to learn the hard way. Hopefully he adds a relief valve sooner then later.

#62 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 05, 2011 - 04:53 PM

Going under the tractor was suggested and rejected. I cannot comment in the feasibility because I am unfamiliar with the underside of Deere GT's. Of course, where there's a will, there's often a way but his costs would have risen. But you are also right that some people have to learn the hard way.

#63 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted April 05, 2011 - 06:10 PM

Your all wrong! I have used my Google foo since the start of this thread to try and find any garden tractor with "Real" hydraulics. I cant find that brand name anywhere. :bigrofl:
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#64 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted April 06, 2011 - 06:04 AM

An engine must be capable of driving both pumps when those pumps are being asked to put out all they have. Since engines are only new until you start them up, you need to factor in a few extra hp above the known needs, to compensate for the wear and tear that takes place. As you pointed out, the best hydro pumps require 14 hp to power them successfully. The smallest engine used to power the hydraulic system in a Case GT was a 10 hp Kohler K. It has been said many times that the Case hydraulic system, as designed, can put 12 hp to whatever is hooked up to it. Logic would dictate that you cannot get 12 hp out of the hydraulic system unless you put at least 12 hp in at the front end. So.......if you need 12 hp to drive the Case hydraulic system and another 14 hp to drive the hydro pump, the math says 26 hp.

That's my story....... and I'm sticking to it.


A Massey 1655 or 1855 borders on the sub-CUT sector of the tractor market. Mechanical rear PTO shafts are few and far between in the world of garden tractors. If you want to make this argument, then shouldn't it be made with the average garden tractor in mind and not the creme of the crop? As for your system, I don't know all the uses you put it to. If it is primarily to power the FEL, then the 2 gallons of oil in the loader towers is fine. However, this discussion has focused on having a system that is equal to the Case GT. I suggest that you install a temperature gauge on your system and then hook up a Case rototiller to it. Go to a spot on your property where the lawn is covering virgin soil and begin to rototill that 40 ft x 50 ft area until you have reached the maximum depth capabilities of the tiller and have cross-tilled the area. Do this on a day where the ambient temp is at least 80 F.

Keep an eye on the temp gauge and your watch. Record how long it takes for the oil temp to hit 180 F, then 200 F and then 220 F or beyond. Once you exceed 200 F, you are now entering the territory where hoses begin to deteriorate and so does the oil. Rototilling is likely the toughest task that we ask garden tractors to perform as it calls for the maximum from the equipment used. The Case hydraulic system is constantly asked to put out full flow to the tiller motor at pressures that often range between 1600 psi and 2000 psi on a constant basis, depending upon ground conditions and travel speed etc. You just don't see happening with a FEL or other cylinder uses.

On the 3100 and 4100 series ALL HYDRAULIC series of Case tractors, the system was often required to power three hydraulic motors at the same time. One motor powered a 48" three bladed mower deck, the second motor powered the Hydra-Vac system that sucked the clippings from the deck and deposited them into a trailer and the third powered the tractor.

In my mind, that's the criteria for duplicating a system that is equivalent to what is available in a Case or Ingersoll tractor. Therefore, someone wanting to convert an existing hydrostatic drive tractor so that it will operate a hydraulic tiller is going to need

- a gear pump capable of 10 gpm @ 3600 rpm, 3000 PSI max pressure
- a six gallon hydraulic oil reservoir
- an oil cooler with 1/2" ports
- some sort of fan to move air over that cooler constantly
- a control valve with built-in relief and 1/2" ports everywhere
- s suitable method to couple the pump to engine
- 1/2" hoses and fittings to connect all the components
- high flow quick couplers to make it simple to connect attachments

What do you have to say about that, Bob? :smile1::smile1::smile1::smile1::smile1:


Well hydriv, you make a lot of excellent points, although I do question the basis of some of them. In particular is your horsepower requirements to operate a hydro and a hydraulic system need to be looked at a little more closely. I might point out that while the Sundstrand has the capability to soak up 14 hp, the actual possibility of that happening is very limited. That requires full throttle and full forward speed with a load that is well above what most would even think about.

I haven't used many implements on my tractors and from this lack of experience I can only think of one chore that could be accomplished while demanding max output capability from the transmission and the hydraulic system at the same time and I very much doubt if anyone has had occassion to take on the task. High power demand implements are not normally used at max forward speed. I don't think even the venerable Case tiller could do its intended job at 4 - 5 mph. Since the speed must be reduced to get the best benefit from an implement, the horsepower needed to operate the hydro is also reduced. I seriously doubt that more than 4 or 5 hp would be needed to pull even a reverse cutting tiller leaving 11 - 12 hp for the hydraulic system.

That's my story.........

The first Case tractor that I met personally was a 666, or was it a 444? Anyway it was a small TLB that I saw on a road trip before I acquired my 1655 and I would place both firmly in the same class. That Case was my inspiration for putting a loader on my MF12H which belongs in the small GT class. That little tractor with its 12 hp engine also had no problem dealing with an 8 gpm auxilliary hydraulic system. As you have stated, hydraulic motors require larger reservoirs and there were places on that particular tractor that could accomodate a substantial reservoir, if needed.

You seem to bypass the issue that with only one pump, the tractor drive is robbing power from the implement on a Case, whereas with two systems the full output of the auxilliary hydraulic system goes to the implement and anything left over from the engine can operate the more efficient hydro. It's all a matter of budget and balance with the edge going to the piston pump in a hydro.

Heat is the #1 killer of hydraulic systems and for motor work a cooler is always a good idea. As you pointed out , a FEL is a limited load on a hydraulic system and my reservoirs have about 6 square feet of radiating surface for a mere 2 gallons of fluid. After extensive use for several hours of loader work on an 80* day, I could/can/did put my hand anywhere on either tank for more than 5 seconds without serious discomfort. That makes the oil temperature less than 120*, a long way away from the 275* point of oil breakdown. My heavy tractors are primarily snow movers and I have often thought of installing an oil cooller just for keeping me a little warmer even though neither system needs one at -20*.

- 10.75 gpm gear pump @4350 psi cont. - $214.99
- single spool valve with relief adj. to 3000 psi - $169.99
- 5 gal reservoir - $89.99
- Quick couplers- 2 sets - $40.96
- pump mount - $35 - $60 depending

Partial total $575.93 +/- Fast perusal of PAL catalogue..

Alternate sources can be utilized to reduce the cost. I live in a border town with access to the southern retailers and home made fabrication can cover other items for less. I have a pair of 10 gallon reservoirs that cost $5 for both at a local auction. I have no doubt that I could bring in such a project for under $800 using my trades skills and parts on hand. For someone without those skills or parts, but shopping wisely, $800 is not a lowball price. The toughest one is the oil cooler.

You forgot the motor. - 2.8 cid, 1800 psi - $249.99

There's one sitting on my shelf. But that does raise the price to over a grand.

You win.:mecry:

#65 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted April 06, 2011 - 06:38 AM

I read that thread but did not comment since I'm banned at MTF. :smilewink::smilewink::smilewink::smilewink:


I think I know which threads got you banned. I know that I sure do miss your comments over there.

#66 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 11, 2011 - 03:18 PM

I think I know which threads got you banned. I know that I sure do miss your comments over there.


Actually, the long-knives were already out for me shortly after I began using the Castoff screen name. It was never an issue of "if" but rather one of "when". The Mods were not interested in by "buts" either. I appreciate your flattering comment. This thread was possible on this forum but I doubt that it would have been tolerated on MTF thanks to the Jackboot policies set down by management. Not my problem any longer. I now have my own forum with two great guys and when it comes to the brands discussed here, the new site is light years ahead of MTF and Yahoo.

#67 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 11, 2011 - 03:34 PM

Well hydriv, you make a lot of excellent points, although I do question the basis of some of them. In particular is your horsepower requirements to operate a hydro and a hydraulic system need to be looked at a little more closely. I might point out that while the Sundstrand has the capability to soak up 14 hp, the actual possibility of that happening is very limited. That requires full throttle and full forward speed with a load that is well above what most would even think about.

When designing a system, do you not take the worst case scenario and then add something for comfort?

I haven't used many implements on my tractors and from this lack of experience I can only think of one chore that could be accomplished while demanding max output capability from the transmission and the hydraulic system at the same time and I very much doubt if anyone has had occassion to take on the task. High power demand implements are not normally used at max forward speed. I don't think even the venerable Case tiller could do its intended job at 4 - 5 mph. Since the speed must be reduced to get the best benefit from an implement, the horsepower needed to operate the hydro is also reduced. I seriously doubt that more than 4 or 5 hp would be needed to pull even a reverse cutting tiller leaving 11 - 12 hp for the hydraulic system.

That's my story.........

And it is a good story. There is no question that tilling taxes the Hydriv system to the max but it is also true that the toughest tilling takes place at the slowest ground speeds.

The first Case tractor that I met personally was a 666, or was it a 444? Anyway it was a small TLB that I saw on a road trip before I acquired my 1655 and I would place both firmly in the same class.

I would not agree. There's no question that the Massey is a brute of a tractor and this is an apples to apples comparison, then I'd agree that the Massey is in the same class as a tractor. However, the 644, 646 and 648 models are purpose-built fully integrated compact loaders. The Massey takes an add-on loader. Big difference in my book but in truth, neither of us have tried the competition. These Case loaders will easily lift 600 pounds to full height safely and lift even more as long as the height is reduced.

That Case was my inspiration for putting a loader on my MF12H which belongs in the small GT class. That little tractor with its 12 hp engine also had no problem dealing with an 8 gpm auxilliary hydraulic system. As you have stated, hydraulic motors require larger reservoirs and there were places on that particular tractor that could accommodate a substantial reservoir, if needed.

You seem to bypass the issue that with only one pump, the tractor drive is robbing power from the implement on a Case, whereas with two systems the full output of the auxilliary hydraulic system goes to the implement and anything left over from the engine can operate the more efficient hydro. It's all a matter of budget and balance with the edge going to the piston pump in a hydro.

I agree. However, the power robber is back pressure and since the drive motor isn't asked to develop a lot of torque while tilling, the tillers work just fine. Where this problem really shows up is on the All Hydraulic tractors when the system is asked to run three pumps in series. Owners have reported that the deck will stop running when the tractor tries to climb a steep grade with the Hydra Vac running.

Heat is the #1 killer of hydraulic systems and for motor work a cooler is always a good idea. As you pointed out , a FEL is a limited load on a hydraulic system and my reservoirs have about 6 square feet of radiating surface for a mere 2 gallons of fluid. After extensive use for several hours of loader work on an 80* day, I could/can/did put my hand anywhere on either tank for more than 5 seconds without serious discomfort. That makes the oil temperature less than 120*, a long way away from the 275* point of oil breakdown. My heavy tractors are primarily snow movers and I have often thought of installing an oil cooller just for keeping me a little warmer even though neither system needs one at -20*.

- 10.75 gpm gear pump @4350 psi cont. - $214.99
- single spool valve with relief adj. to 3000 psi - $169.99
- 5 gal reservoir - $89.99
- Quick couplers- 2 sets - $40.96
- pump mount - $35 - $60 depending

Partial total $575.93 +/- Fast perusal of PAL catalogue..

Alternate sources can be utilized to reduce the cost. I live in a border town with access to the southern retailers and home made fabrication can cover other items for less. I have a pair of 10 gallon reservoirs that cost $5 for both at a local auction. I have no doubt that I could bring in such a project for under $800 using my trades skills and parts on hand. For someone without those skills or parts, but shopping wisely, $800 is not a lowball price. The toughest one is the oil cooler.

You forgot the motor. - 2.8 cid, 1800 psi - $249.99

There's one sitting on my shelf. But that does raise the price to over a grand.

You win.:mecry:


This was never about winning or losing for me. :smile1::smilewink: All we had here was a friendly discussion about tractors that use fluid power in one form or another to propel them.

#68 olcowhand OFFLINE  

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Posted April 11, 2011 - 04:11 PM

Everyone is a winner as long as you like the tractor you own, whether it's hydro, hydraulic, or gear. Lots of good info in this thread.

#69 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted April 12, 2011 - 03:18 AM

This was never about winning or losing for me. :smile1::smilewink: All we had here was a friendly discussion about tractors that use fluid power in one form or another to propel them.


We are all winners with the information and knowledge that is poured into threads like this one. I call it an inexpensive learning experience. It's much easier to do a project by way of these discussions so that the wheel doesn't have to be constantly re-invented. :thumbs:

I do take the worst case scenario when designing a hydraulic system. But that is modified by what can happen in the real world. The horsepower required to run a 4000 lb car on a dyno at 60 mph is 12. Now we all know that a dyno is not "real world", but neither is expecting to run a high demand implement while laying that kind of power on the ground with a 2000 lb tractor at a relatively low speed. I factor a 50% drive power reduction when operating implements on my tractor and that includes a 50% comfort zone. You have to remember that you have to be travelling at speed to deliver that power. If the tractor slows, the power is automatically reduced. If the tractor can deliver 14 hp to the ground at 5 mph, then at a tilling speed of 1.25 mph it can only deliver a max of 3.5 hp. at max pressure because a hydro will only put out enough fluid for the speed that it is set for, no matter where the throttle is set.

Perspective is everything, and mine has changed considerably since I saw that Case 30 odd years ago. With what I have learned on forums and while playing with my 12H and 1655, you hit the nail on the head. The Case 644 is an industrial class TLB and as such is clearly superior to the 1655 structurally, but as tractors, it would indeed be an interesting comparison in real life work. :iagree:
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#70 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted April 12, 2011 - 04:30 AM

This thread has been a learning experience for me. I operated full sized loader/backhoes for quite a few years, but never got into learning hydraulic principals. Now I play with the little tractors and have fun learning what can be done with them. My thanks to all who have contributed.

#71 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 12, 2011 - 09:02 AM

This thread has been a learning experience for me. I operated full sized loader/backhoes for quite a few years, but never got into learning hydraulic principals. Now I play with the little tractors and have fun learning what can be done with them. My thanks to all who have contributed.


Please send me your complete address so that I can submit an invoice on behalf of Bob and myself.
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