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Which GT's have real hydraulics?


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#31 tractorgarden OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 08:33 AM

I have decided to work on my needle point. lol

#32 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 08:43 AM

I have decided to work on my needle point. lol


Are you going to start crocheting tractors? :D

#33 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 08:49 AM

Sounds like an excellent plan. I understand that needlepoint is quite relaxing. Perhaps it will allow you to ponder which tractor is best suited to your needs and then you can share that with us.

#34 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 08:53 AM

My needles are a little dull. Guess I need to quit using them for center punches.
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#35 tractorgarden OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 10:34 AM

Are you going to start crocheting tractors? :D

I was thinking more like GTTalk underwear, and winter caps as soon as I can get the dang hydraulic motor on my automatic crocheting machine to work off my charge pump. :laughingteeth: NOT!
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#36 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 11:02 AM

I was thinking more like GTTalk underwear


Only if they are thongs :bigrofl:
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#37 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 02:15 PM

Only if they are thongs :bigrofl:





The image of George wearing nothing but a crocheted thong is something that could cause brain damage in most people .
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#38 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 02:17 PM

The image of George wearing nothing but a crocheted thong is something that could cause brain damage in most people .


I didn't say it was going to be pretty :D

Hmmm, now that got the wheels turning for next April Fools LOL

#39 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 03:41 PM

I was thinking more like GTTalk underwear, and winter caps as soon as I can get the dang hydraulic motor on my automatic crocheting machine to work off my charge pump. :laughingteeth: NOT!


:D I'm glad that this particular conversation got back to tractor talk! I was beginning to think I'd accessed a knitting forum.:(

With the small size of the motors needed for an automatic crocheting machine, I think your charge pump would be more than adequate.:laughingteeth:
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#40 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 04:38 PM

:laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth: I did read that 2nd post of the OP's, Bob.

I wasn't confused by it at all. :D It was my impression that the OP knew that JD 445"s and similar tractors, do have hydraulic capabilities but was unaware of the limited capability. Of course, all of this is just speculation on my part and others. The only one who can clear it up is the OP and he's nowhere to be found.

As for your second assertion regarding adding hydraulics to an existing hydro drive tractor that would have the capabilities of what Case or Ingersoll ownership offers.....let's look at that.

The subject tractor would have to have enough HP to be able to drive a 10 GPM hydraulic pump as well as the hydro pump. I think that you would be looking at 25 HP or better.

Since many tractors now use vertical shaft engines, finding a way to drive a pump would be challenging. If you went with a belt drive, then it would have to be a timing belt and that would entail an expensive belt and pulleys. The pump would also be expensive thanks to the need for one capable of withstanding high side-loading from the belt Room for such a set up would be a challenge and so would finding the room for the six gallon reservoir and the oil cooler needed to keep oil temperature under control.

In all honesty, I could easily see someone dropping somewhere between one and two thousand dollars to add "true hydraulics" to an existing hydro drive tractor. The end result would also look pretty mickey mouse due to lack of space to keep all components under the hood. In addition, I don't know how you would get around the "without adding belts" criteria when it came to driving the pump.

Your turn.


:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:Yup. It would be nice if the OP would come back and stick his oar in the water.

Since the hydraulic drive tractors that you refer to do not come with 25 hp engines, I fail to see why a hydro tractor would need such an engine. Since even the Sundstrand 15 only requires 14 hp at max performance levels and I have never had occassion to pop the relief on mine at full throttle and full speed, I can only deduce that power requirements for normal hydro use are substatially below that number leaving lots of power available for an implement hydraulic drive system, especially since the Case/Ingersol hydraulic system uses only one gear pump to do both tasks.

Gear pumps and motors as found in the Case/Ingersol tractors operate at an efficiency level somewhat lower than the piston pump/ motor found in hydrostatic tractors. About the best efficiency available in a gear pump/motor combination is 64%, whereas a piston pump/motor combo in a hydro operates at at least 80%. A substantial difference in available horsepower from the same size engine for other tasks.

I agree that most of the tractors built today have vertical crank engines, but more lawn tractors are built than garden tractors, which is the class that this discussion is about. By and large, the vast majority of GTs use horizontal cranks. The newer aero styling does put a cramp on available space for adding a pump, but it is not an unworkable problem.

On my MF1655 I drive my 8 gpm auxilliary pump with a single common v-belt from the end of my primary PTO shaft. In over 2000 hours that belt has been replaced once. Slipping has not been an issue. The 2 gallon reservoir is the posts of the FEL and has sufficient surface area to dump excess heat without the need of a cooler. The pump may look Mickey Mouse sticking out behind the seat, but the shrouding around it conceals it quite well and adds a seat behind the operator. The ideal location for a pump is directly coupled to the engine but that costs the availability of the front PTO. This set-up keeps both PTOs. Log splitters use direct coupled pumps and the same can be done to any engine.

If you can't add an auxilliary hydraulic system to a GT for less than $500 - $800, you're buying premium components and will end up with similar efficiencies to a hydro's piston pump and not a Case gear pump.

And back to you. :beerchug:
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#41 bhts OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 05:17 PM

:nothingtoadd:

#42 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 06:22 PM

:nothingtoadd:


In which way do you want to be a part of this thread Bob, wearing a GTtalk thong or talking about newer hydraulic tractors? :bigrofl:

#43 bhts OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 06:33 PM

Thong of course :D

#44 thompson1600 OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 08:16 PM

Hydriv is correct. I was looking for true hydraulics. I also did not, nor do I yet, completely understand the limited capacity of the John Deere's system (ie my 2nd post making things murky due to a lack of understanding). Although from what I have read in this post, it seems John Deere would use the Hydro as a pseudo hydraulic unit, or a belt driven pump or electric hydraulics. Is that correct?

Edited by thompson1600, April 04, 2011 - 11:25 PM.


#45 hydriv OFFLINE  

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Posted April 04, 2011 - 10:49 PM

Hydriv is correct. I was looking for true hydraulics. I also did not, nor do I yet, completely understand the limited capacity of the John Deere's system (ie my 2nd post making things murky due to a lack of understanding). Although from what I have read in this post, it seems John Deere would use the Hydro as a pseudo hydraulic unit, or electric hydraulics. Is that correct?



The simple answer (hopefully) is this.

Case uses a gear type hydraulic pump that constantly circulates up to 10 gallons of oil as long as the engine is running. You can tap into that constant flow to run either cylinders or motors.

Other makes use a hydrostatic pump which is actually two pumps in one. The main hydrostatic pump is actually a variable displacement unit that can pump no oil at all when the engine is running or it can pump its rated output. That depends on the position of a control lever or foot pedal. However, the hydro pump is dedicated to making the tractor travel in one direction or another. It serves no other purpose.

Inside the hydro pump is a small, second pump that is similar to the one used in the Case tractors. This is called the "charge pump" and it's primary purpose is to constantly circulate oil through the hydrostatic pump to keep it full of cooled oil. ince it has to be there, someone decided that "work ports" could be tapped into the sides of it to make use of this constantly circulating oil. The problem here is this. These pumps usually put out around 3 to 5 gpm and are restricted to no more than 1000 PSI as a maximum developed pressure.

While these specs are fine for power steering, front end loaders and other small hydraulic cylinders, it isn't enough flow and pressure for hydraulic motors and log splitters. Deere makes fine equipment as do many other manufacturers. Hydrostatic drive certainly has its merits. This thread is simply about the differences between the two.
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