Jump to content

Nominations for Tractor of the Month
Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

Which GT's have real hydraulics?


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#16 middleageddeere OFFLINE  

middleageddeere

    Tacos!

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 2033
  • 243 Thanks
  • 1,082 posts
  • Location: MI

Posted April 02, 2011 - 07:32 AM

I am confused...

#17 olcowhand ONLINE  

olcowhand

    Red Tractor Nut & Diesel Addict

  • Staff Admin
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Sponsor
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 20
  • 35,602 Thanks
  • 29,831 posts
  • Location: South Central Kentucky

Posted April 02, 2011 - 07:38 AM

I am confused...


About what specifically?

#18 Alc ONLINE  

Alc

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 1094
  • 5,447 Thanks
  • 6,611 posts
  • Location: Bangor Pa

Posted April 02, 2011 - 08:01 AM

I've learned a lot from this Thread already, lots of good info here. Next time I see a Case on craigslist I'll have to check it out . It would be handy to have a tractor with a 3pt , PTO and hyds to run attachments like a small post hole digger or maybe a 3pt log splitter. What kind of attachments where you planning on using on your tractor ? Al

#19 middleageddeere OFFLINE  

middleageddeere

    Tacos!

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 2033
  • 243 Thanks
  • 1,082 posts
  • Location: MI

Posted April 02, 2011 - 08:18 AM

Well, the original question was asked and Mr. Cow Foot (lol) answered, with what I thought was an appropriate answer, and the OP stated he meant something like the JD 445. So, I am wondering what the OP was really looking for...maybe I just missed it somewhere though.
  • tractorgarden said thank you

#20 hydriv OFFLINE  

hydriv

    Tractorholic

  • Validating
  • Member No: 256
  • 70 Thanks
  • 583 posts

Posted April 02, 2011 - 08:35 AM

Hydriv

Your response seems to be a bit defensive. I did not mean to in any way disparage Case/Ingersoll tractors. I am most familiar with the capabilities of JD stuff. In doing research on other brands of GT's I was surprised to see the unique (for GT's) Hydriv implementation used by Colt and later Case/Ingersoll. As I mentioned above it is fundamentally different than a hydrostatic drive system. I am well aware of the advantages of such a system. I am using this site and MTF to gather info about different GT's so I can decide what best fits my needs. Being from Canada I have no knowledge of what attachments were available in the OP's area. Case GT's are rare here and the attachments, other than mower decks, would be even harder to find. This will be a consideration for me when I am looking for a restoration project. I thought it might also be so for the OP.

Regards
Brian



Brian,
My response was not about defending Colt, Case and Ingersoll tractors.

Rather, it was about staying on point.

The OP asked a very simple question. He wanted to know the make and model number of all the tractors that had "real hydraulics" that could power available implements. If you are as familiar with Deere products as you say you are, can you name me even ONE Deere GT that has a hydraulic system capable of powering Deere's own hydraulic rototiller? Aside from a hydraulic rototiller, do you know of another Deere implement that uses a hydraulic motor?

You are very correct in saying that Case GT's are difficult to find east of the Quebec border. Maynard Jodrey, a long-time member of this forum, has been looking for one for some time now and he lives in Nova Scotia. You are also right in saying that different areas of North America can be either rich or poor in tractors and implements and that also affects the prices demanded and paid. However, as someone who is a collector and living in Ontario, Canada; I have not let distance deter me from obtaining items that I want. Last year, I bought a GE Elec-trak from Arizona, a Colt 2510 from Kansas, a Colt Super from Georgia and a Case walk behind Tiller and Case Lawn Tractor from Michigan. I have also sold two Case snowcasters to forum members living in British Columbia and Alberta.

As a collector/restorer, I could care less about tractor attachments unless I consider them to be rare because attachments are a royal PITA to take to tractor shows. Therefore, I kinda find your reference that attachment availability would be a consideration in a restoration project because I don't know another collector who cares about attachments any more than I do.

Based upon your wording, I get the impression that you are looking to make a "working tractor" for yourself as opposed to the show/parade trailer queens that most collectors have. As for the OP, I have no idea what he wants a tractor for as he has not revealed a single clue.

The thing about threads is that they end up in archives and neither you nor I have any idea who will read them months or years from now. Whatever information is in this thread should be accurate; don't you agree?

#21 hydriv OFFLINE  

hydriv

    Tractorholic

  • Validating
  • Member No: 256
  • 70 Thanks
  • 583 posts

Posted April 02, 2011 - 08:41 AM

I've learned a lot from this Thread already, lots of good info here. Next time I see a Case on craigslist I'll have to check it out . It would be handy to have a tractor with a 3pt , PTO and hyds to run attachments like a small post hole digger or maybe a 3pt log splitter. What kind of attachments where you planning on using on your tractor ? Al


FYI, Case and Ingersoll garden tractors use a CAT O three-point hitch and a hydraulic PTO. Therefore, one would have to build their own hydraulic post hole digger because there are none available in the marketplace any longer. Danuser did make one back in the early 70's but I don't know of a single copy in existence today.
  • Alc said thank you

#22 tractorgarden OFFLINE  

tractorgarden

    Junk Whisperer

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 2291
  • 1,277 Thanks
  • 1,432 posts
  • Location: northwest pa

Posted April 02, 2011 - 09:43 AM

Because of me not knowing what the heck, an OP is I am confused LOL . Is it Other person, octopus pleasure, open pollinated, Opel performance, OIL POWER, Obama president, other power, original problem, open pressure, ostrich power, only pressure , open port am I close. I have not seen any wrong answer , a lot of real good points, I own many different brands with all kinds of different drivetrains. I love them all , each machine in as different from the next as people are. There are gains and losses in all systems . Shall we continue to argue about what brand is better or take the advice from each other, and find the solution that best fits your needs. gravely had a great design that the implements could interchange for more years than I can remember. Power Kings hydraulic system is not from a charge pump on the non fiberglass models, although it was not high volume . Think about how easy a PK would be to have the high flow hydraulic system of a case. I would like to thank everyone for the wealth of knowledge that we all share on this great site. By the way, my design is better than yours! :poke:

#23 hydriv OFFLINE  

hydriv

    Tractorholic

  • Validating
  • Member No: 256
  • 70 Thanks
  • 583 posts

Posted April 02, 2011 - 10:11 AM

Because of me not knowing what the heck, an OP is I am confused LOL . Is it Other person, octopus pleasure, open pollinated, Opel performance, OIL POWER, Obama president, other power, original problem, open pressure, ostrich power, only pressure , open port am I close. I have not seen any wrong answer , a lot of real good points, I own many different brands with all kinds of different drivetrains. I love them all , each machine in as different from the next as people are. There are gains and losses in all systems . Shall we continue to argue about what brand is better or take the advice from each other, and find the solution that best fits your needs. gravely had a great design that the implements could interchange for more years than I can remember. Power Kings hydraulic system is not from a charge pump on the non fiberglass models, although it was not high volume . Think about how easy a PK would be to have the high flow hydraulic system of a case. I would like to thank everyone for the wealth of knowledge that we all share on this great site. By the way, my design is better than yours! :poke:



OP means 'Original Post'er". In other words, the party that began the thread.

Secondly, this was not about which brand was better. It was about which brand or brands had a hydraulic system capable of powering attachments.

Thirdly. Hydraulic systems need to be judged on their capability and that capability is related to the ability of the pump to produce X number of gallons per minute and to also develop peak pressure when called upon to do so.

#24 tractorgarden OFFLINE  

tractorgarden

    Junk Whisperer

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 2291
  • 1,277 Thanks
  • 1,432 posts
  • Location: northwest pa

Posted April 02, 2011 - 11:14 AM

OP means 'Original Post'er". In other words, the party that began the thread.

Secondly, this was not about which brand was better. It was about which brand or brands had a hydraulic system capable of powering attachments.

Thirdly. Hydraulic systems need to be judged on their capability and that capability is related to the ability of the pump to produce X number of gallons per minute and to also develop peak pressure when called upon to do so.

Thank you for clarifying what OP meant. I did however not see that the OP wanted to run a hydraulic motor powered implement, It seems that he was most concerned with lifting capability. The three point cat.o on my AMF has the capability to lift the rear wheels completely off the ground using down pressure, The tractors weight is 1650 lbs without me on it when I plow. not to bad for a low flow charge pump. I think that a sleeve or three point hitch is considered a implement, because they are not standard equipment, that in turn uses true hydraulic power to raise and lower. So my 12" brinly plow becomes a hydraulic operated implement, as does any other tool that I raise and lower with the combined flow and pressure from the charge pump. You are a very intelligent resource when it comes to this topic. True hydraulics is in essence around all of us every single day,be it the engine you found at the scrap yard full of water , removed the plugs turned over by electric starter and got drenched, LOL yes happened more than once to me, some times I never learn. I do not disagree with your thoughts on case, Ive had case gts since about 84, I love them. As you know hydraulics have a lot in common with electric, voltage =pressure amperage=flow , so that means there is more than one way to get the end result. By the way what do you think about putting a case drive train in place of the peerless in a magnatrac crawler loader? Your friend in case hydraulics, Shawn

Edited by tractorgarden, April 02, 2011 - 11:50 AM.


#25 hydriv OFFLINE  

hydriv

    Tractorholic

  • Validating
  • Member No: 256
  • 70 Thanks
  • 583 posts

Posted April 02, 2011 - 11:55 AM

tractorgarden,
I think that it's fair to say that different people can read the same post and come away with different interpretations. Perhaps that is what's at issue here, more than anything else. At the risk of appearing to be flogging a dead horse, I have to refer to the words of the OP once again.

Which make and model GT tractors have real hydraulics and the HP and chassis capable of utilizing them with implements still available?

Here's how I interpreted the above. The OP was looking for a tractor with a real hydraulic system in it. While it is true that a hydrostatic drive tractor does rely on hydraulic principles to propel it, a hydro pump is exceedingly limited when it comes to operating attachments. How many attachments do you know of that only use a hydraulic cylinder/s?

Front end loader

Power angle snow/dirt/dozer blade.

3 point hitch

log splitter.


Perhaps I've missed one and others are welcome to add to that list.

But in the world of attachments needing real hydraulic power, that list is small thanks to the low pressure and low flow that the charge pumps in hydrostatic drives. But if one has a real hydraulic system like a Case or Ingersoll has, the whole issue of capability to power attachments opens up dramatically.

You are correct that the OP did not specify that the hydraulic system had to be able to power motors but he did state that he wanted the hydraulics to power attachments. The Case and Ingersoll tractors are the only ones capable of powering a BROAD range of attachments, some of which are not even offered by other brands.

How many brands are capable of powering a chipper/shredder or a 4 ft Bush Hog style rough-cut mower or a 48" three-point hitch finishing mower? How about a hydraulic drive 48" and 60" mower deck or 48" snowblower?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here. I'm simply pointing out that there's a huge difference between the two systems, as you well know. If all the OP wants to do is to move some hydraulic cylinders back and forth, then any GT fitted with a hydrostatic drive equipped with external ports will work just fine but if his goal is to have a truly capable hydraulic system, then the choice narrows to the Case and Ingersoll tractors.


As for the Magnetrac idea, I think that most Magnetrac enthusiasts would band together and beat you silly if you did that. :D:D:D

Yes.. it could be done but instead... why not find a cheap Case GT from 1978 or later? Remove the trans-axle and front axle. Get a set of tracks from an old trencher or mini-excavator or even build your own track set up and join them up to the Case. If you have the Case and an existing track drive set up, then you have all the parts needed to create a Case crawler. It's been done in the past and there are groups on Yahoo that are all about making tracked machines.




#26 TUDOR OFFLINE  

TUDOR

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 915
  • 543 Thanks
  • 497 posts
  • Location: Sault Ste Marie, Ontario

Posted April 04, 2011 - 12:58 AM

tractorgarden,
I think that it's fair to say that different people can read the same post and come away with different interpretations. Perhaps that is what's at issue here, more than anything else. At the risk of appearing to be flogging a dead horse, I have to refer to the words of the OP once again.

Which make and model GT tractors have real hydraulics and the HP and chassis capable of utilizing them with implements still available?

Here's how I interpreted the above. The OP was looking for a tractor with a real hydraulic system in it.


While you are correct on the quote from the OP's original post, his second post (Post #3) began with a qualifier.

"Guess I was thinking like the JD 445, et al."

Further reading of his second post will further confuse the issue if full credence is not given to this qualifier and perhaps accepting a lack of knowledge by the OP in the realm of hydraulics.

While you are also correct that only the Case and Ingersoll tractors have full hydraulic capability from the factory, that capability can be added to any GT by the simple expediant of bolting a suitable pump to an adapter on the front of the engine, coupling it to the crankshaft and adding the required components. It will not be original, but it will be equivalent to the Case/Ingersoll implement system with the added advantage of retaining the rear PTO and the hydrostatic drive. Major plusses in my opinion, and without adding belts.

#27 hydriv OFFLINE  

hydriv

    Tractorholic

  • Validating
  • Member No: 256
  • 70 Thanks
  • 583 posts

Posted April 04, 2011 - 04:16 AM

While you are correct on the quote from the OP's original post, his second post (Post #3) began with a qualifier.

"Guess I was thinking like the JD 445, et al."

Further reading of his second post will further confuse the issue if full credence is not given to this qualifier and perhaps accepting a lack of knowledge by the OP in the realm of hydraulics.

While you are also correct that only the Case and Ingersoll tractors have full hydraulic capability from the factory, that capability can be added to any GT by the simple expediant of bolting a suitable pump to an adapter on the front of the engine, coupling it to the crankshaft and adding the required components. It will not be original, but it will be equivalent to the Case/Ingersoll implement system with the added advantage of retaining the rear PTO and the hydrostatic drive. Major plusses in my opinion, and without adding belts.



:laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth: I did read that 2nd post of the OP's, Bob.

I wasn't confused by it at all. :D It was my impression that the OP knew that JD 445"s and similar tractors, do have hydraulic capabilities but was unaware of the limited capability. Of course, all of this is just speculation on my part and others. The only one who can clear it up is the OP and he's nowhere to be found.

As for your second assertion regarding adding hydraulics to an existing hydro drive tractor that would have the capabilities of what Case or Ingersoll ownership offers.....let's look at that.

The subject tractor would have to have enough HP to be able to drive a 10 GPM hydraulic pump as well as the hydro pump. I think that you would be looking at 25 HP or better.

Since many tractors now use vertical shaft engines, finding a way to drive a pump would be challenging. If you went with a belt drive, then it would have to be a timing belt and that would entail an expensive belt and pulleys. The pump would also be expensive thanks to the need for one capable of withstanding high side-loading from the belt Room for such a set up would be a challenge and so would finding the room for the six gallon reservoir and the oil cooler needed to keep oil temperature under control.

In all honesty, I could easily see someone dropping somewhere between one and two thousand dollars to add "true hydraulics" to an existing hydro drive tractor. The end result would also look pretty mickey mouse due to lack of space to keep all components under the hood. In addition, I don't know how you would get around the "without adding belts" criteria when it came to driving the pump.

Your turn.

#28 broken2 OFFLINE  

broken2

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 85
  • 279 Thanks
  • 425 posts
  • Location: Upstate NY- Rochester

Posted April 04, 2011 - 06:16 AM

After all this the "OP" has probably decided to take up needle point instead.

#29 hydriv OFFLINE  

hydriv

    Tractorholic

  • Validating
  • Member No: 256
  • 70 Thanks
  • 583 posts

Posted April 04, 2011 - 07:53 AM

After all this the "OP" has probably decided to take up needle point instead.



It's a cheaper hobby.:laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth:

#30 KennyP ONLINE  

KennyP

    FORDoholic

  • Super Moderator
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 2253
  • 28,405 Thanks
  • 39,659 posts
  • Location: Collinsville, Oklahoma

Posted April 04, 2011 - 07:55 AM

It's a cheaper hobby.:laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth::laughingteeth:

Gives more time to think of more questions like this.
KennyP




Top