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Questions about my new 2414 / K321 PK


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#46 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted May 04, 2015 - 08:35 PM

Alright - I'm getting frustrated and could use some help. I took the throttle linkage off the carb, started the tractor, and just operated the throttle plate by hand. Ran smooth; no jumping or surging anywhere in the powerband. Hooked the throttle linkage and governor back up... right back to surging. Prolly not good news? Governor gear?

I then went to try and adjust the two throttle cable adjustment screws directly under the pump (as I had no adjustment off idle until over the halfway point on the throttle lever) and everything went downhill from there. Now it idles down so far (and the idle adjustment screw on the carb itself makes little to no difference) that you can hear every compression stroke, with a noticeable ping heard through the muffler on some of them when it went low enough, but always stayed running. Up in mid to high throttle it still surges, and I can even see a spark in the muffler some of the time it does so, almost like it's missing (brand new plug) on that stroke.

Ideas. Where to start... what to test? Mind you, I'm no slouch when it comes to engines and mechanics, and can even manipulate ECU maps on EFI cars (although my experience with adjustable carbs is limited), but this little 1-cylinder is becoming a PITA.


EDIT:

I really think springs in pix are not right position at all. The big one is just pulling on the arm that mower chain lifts too, which is also wrong and just some extension someone put on there. Don't even see where that would give any leverage put on there. The later pix posted above are the more useful pull areas and make more sense. On that surging, try changing the car settings a little, maybe making slightly richer than you have now and see if it evens out. Other than the light Gov spring being stretched or in wrong holes on the linkages (might try diff holes too) the carb settings might help. If you look in a kohler manual, they may show the governors and diff postition changes of springs and such to get diff things to happen. I don't think any PK manuals will show those settings.

Oh... the springs are definitely not in the "right" position in comparison to the "factory" setup, but it undeniably works (to some extent). The spring is actually under tension in my photos, so if I unlock the lift arm, the spring would pull straight back on the mower lift arm, thus turning the lift arm pivot shaft counter-clockwise, forcing the lever forward and helping to lift the hitch.

And adjusting the carb makes little difference, at least until the point that it goes too rich or lean and starts to stumble. It definitely has no bearing on the surging...

Edited by dzignr_tastz, May 04, 2015 - 09:09 PM.


#47 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted May 05, 2015 - 08:59 AM

Can you hook the governor up with out the throttle linkage? What engine is in there?



#48 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted May 05, 2015 - 12:32 PM

Can you hook the governor up with out the throttle linkage? What engine is in there?


It's a K321... and how would I go about doing that, as the throttle "linkage" goes between the governor arm and carb. Do you mean cable, as in disconnect the spring from the governor arm and see how it runs with just the governor attached to the carb?

Edited by dzignr_tastz, May 05, 2015 - 12:33 PM.


#49 Glenn Ayers OFFLINE  

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Posted May 05, 2015 - 06:01 PM

There is a "Procedure" to setting up the governor.  Find the instructions & follow them.  I.E. ...Loosen the gov shaft clamp .. rotate gov shaft this way .. then re-tighten clamp  ... set spring in this hole ... yada yada yada.     Any time I've had a Kohler surging ... this was the cure.


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#50 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted May 05, 2015 - 06:13 PM

There is a "Procedure" to setting up the governor.  Find the instructions & follow them.  I.E. ...Loosen the gov shaft clamp .. rotate gov shaft this way .. then re-tighten clamp  ... set spring in this hole ... yada yada yada.     Any time I've had a Kohler surging ... this was the cure.


I've got the Kohler manual (2 different ones, in fact), and went through the initial setup on the governor Sunday evening since I had the carb off to clean it. It made no difference whatsoever, unfortunately.

And trust me. I've read practically every thread on the web (here and elsewhere) regarding "surging". Just getting into "missing, popping, and backfiring", though, which I'm now thinking is the primary issue and the governor is just trying to react to that happening.

#51 Texas Deere and Horse OFFLINE  

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Posted May 05, 2015 - 10:22 PM

To ask a dumb question, have you sprayed carb. cleaner area the throttle arm and the intake gasket to see if it changes the engine rpm's?  Maybe have an air leak that could be causing the problem??


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#52 Glenn Ayers OFFLINE  

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Posted May 06, 2015 - 03:11 AM

Have you removed the big long main jet needle from the top of the carb & cleaned the crap from inside it ?     It should have one or two very small holes near the pointy end of it ... then more larger holes up near the top.  The inner cavity of this needle can get crapped up & cause missing, popping, & backfiring.  Make sure carb cleaner will spray through the bottom holes & out the top holes.     Fine rust/dirt in carb bowl will cause this too.

 

g


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#53 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted May 06, 2015 - 06:13 AM

I wasn't going to reply because everyones suggestions seemed like what I would have said but am a little confused because you said it ran smooth with the governor linkage removed but last night said its now missing and popping ?
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#54 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted May 06, 2015 - 09:06 AM

To ask a dumb question, have you sprayed carb. cleaner area the throttle arm and the intake gasket to see if it changes the engine rpm's?  Maybe have an air leak that could be causing the problem??


There are no dumb questions. ;) And I haven't... yet. I did wiggle the throttle yesterday morning (on my way out the door to work) and it does have the slightest bit of noticeable play in it, so that was on the agenda for today when I have some daylight left to work with. I read that this could be a potential problem, and if so, the carb might need a bushing to tighten things up, but that's still to be determined. The intake gasket looked practically new when I took off the carb to clean it, though, so I left it, but did replace the air filter housing to carb gasket, which had deteriorated around the bottom hole with no screw in it.

I did start it this evening and dialed the idle back up with the idle screw (don't remember backing it out, but it worked), so at least I'm back to where I was before I tried to adjust the throttle cable.

If I had an air leak, though, I'd end up with a lean mixture, which would, if anything, result in a backfire through the carb? The spark in the muffler worries me in that it would seem I'm afterfiring, and getting some unburned mixture into the exhaust. Whether that's a overly rich mixture not being completely burned, spark blowing out under compression (plug gap maybe, as I didn't set it but just eyeballed it against the prvious one, which might hsve been wide) or the coil just not firing and not burning the mixture on a stroke, or an exhaust valve that isn't seating properly (carbon buildup or otherwise), I would tend to think it's an issue of too much fuel rather than too much air. Anything's possible, though, ans I'm entertaining (and testing) all ideas at the moment. Luckily, A/F ratios are something I'm quite familiar with. Just new to getting them dialed in on a carb vs. injectors.

Have you removed the big long main jet needle from the top of the carb & cleaned the crap from inside it ?     It should have one or two very small holes near the pointy end of it ... then more larger holes up near the top.  The inner cavity of this needle can get crapped up & cause missing, popping, & backfiring.  Make sure carb cleaner will spray through the bottom holes & out the top holes.     Fine rust/dirt in carb bowl will cause this too.


I pulled the high rpm needle Monday night and it seemed as free and clear as it did after cleaning the carb. I can also back it out so far to make the mixture so rich the engine stumbles to die, so I'm definitely getting fuel, and it would seem plenty to not be running lean.

I wasn't going to reply because everyones suggestions seemed like what I would have said but am a little confused because you said it ran smooth with the governor linkage removed but last night said its now missing and popping ?


There's the thing. It definitely ran smoother (or more consistent) with the governor detatched, probably partially due to the governor not constantly trying to adjust the throttle, but I'm pretty sure I could still hear some miss (not as much popping) with it disconnected. That's why I'm torn bwtween a "chicken or the egg" scenario; is it the govenor constantly adjusting causing the missing (which it shouldn't even do operating properly under load), or the missing causing the governor to constantly adjust, which in retun just makes the missing worse from the constant throttle changes?
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#55 icpik OFFLINE  

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Posted May 06, 2015 - 08:45 PM

Two things to try.  First replace all the fuel line if you have not done so already.  Gunk coats the inside and continually breaks away.  Then replace the points, even if you don't think there is a problem.  Had a similar problem with a Wheel Horse.  Changed everything but the points.  The problem was the points and they looked good to me.

 

If neither of these work, find, make, or buy a good friend with the same engine.  Replace his carb with yours and if his engine runs rough, replace the carb.

 

Don Hayes


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#56 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted May 06, 2015 - 11:04 PM

Two things to try.  First replace all the fuel line if you have not done so already.  Gunk coats the inside and continually breaks away.  Then replace the points, even if you don't think there is a problem.  Had a similar problem with a Wheel Horse.  Changed everything but the points.  The problem was the points and they looked good to me.
 
If neither of these work, find, make, or buy a good friend with the same engine.  Replace his carb with yours and if his engine runs rough, replace the carb.
 
Don Hayes


No points to replace; it's a breakerless ignition (appareently rare, and expensive to fix). And I'm getting plenty of fuel, as when I pulled the new plug today and it was rather black with carbon. Gapped it to .010 less than spec to test and it may have made a minimal improvement.

I'm honestly leaning towards pump or ignition at this point, as the fuel is there. Maybe too much, and either the pump is faulty (read from a reliable source that gas smell in the oil, which I had, could be a hole in the diaphragm) or the ignition just isn't firing on all cylinders... literally.

#57 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted May 07, 2015 - 07:05 AM

Hope you get to the cause with your finds . Since you have don fuel injection work ,if you can find the carb manual they sometimes have great explantions on how all the little passage ways and ports work . I know after reading them I wonder how the engine runs at all lol .
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#58 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted May 07, 2015 - 07:12 PM

To ask a dumb question, have you sprayed carb. cleaner area the throttle arm and the intake gasket to see if it changes the engine rpm's?  Maybe have an air leak that could be causing the problem??


Well I sprayed all around the carb with very little noticeable change, but then put my little red straw on the carb cleaner and kept repeatedly shooting short bursts during higher throttle (and surging) right at the bore where the throttle shaft goes through the carb housing and it definitely evened out. Now I'm not sure if it was the extra fuel leaking through and being added to the mixture that had the positive effect, or just the fact that fuel and not air was being drawn in, but the carb is off again an is going to get another full cleaning and probably a washer for a bushing (as the carb is the one with the indentation to do so).

I also pulled the pump, as I pulled the oil plug and am definitely smelling gas in the fresh oil as well. It pumps when manually moving the lever, but either way I'm going to disassemble it and check the diaphragm, as the fuel in the oil has to be coming from somewhere. Maybe it's a mixture of all of the above, but I'm going to tear it all down and get to the bottom of it.

I'll update with my findings!
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#59 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted June 12, 2015 - 08:26 PM

Well the big kahuna, TD&H, hit the nail on the head. Guess that why he's the HMFIC!

Disassembled and spit shined the carb and pump, installed one of Brian Miller's bronze throttle bushings (which I assume was the primary fix), a full overhaul kit, new pump and carb gaskets, a new o-ring and gasket on my original fuel strainer bowl, and all new fuel lines (converting the one remaining hard line from the tank to the pump) along with a 45 micron inline fuel filter and Permatex Aviation on all the fitting threads. She now runs like a champ, with not so much as a drop of gas leaking anywhere! Still not sure about the gas in the crankcase but I've heated her up good twice now for a couple projects, so I'll check again soon to see if it's all evaporated (or at the very least, improved), although another oil change will be in her near future regardless.

Just thought I'd update with my resolution (as I hate threads without one), but since I never received any follow up on my staff "issue" and it was apparently brushed under the rug, I'll continue elsewhere. Thanks for the help!




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