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Questions about my new 2414 / K321 PK


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#16 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted April 02, 2015 - 06:19 PM

And she runs! Rather well in fact, with nothing more than a pretty basic carb disassembly and cleaning, float bowl ring gasket (whoever had it apart before never reinstalled one and was using only the neoprene splash guard as a gasket... which the outside of the bowl clearly showed), air filter housing to carb gasket (bottom quarter where there isn't a screw had deteriorated), and some fresh gas with a couple ounces of Seafoam added.

Put hydraulics on it. Not hard to do, lots of stuff on eBay for these.

What's required? Controls, mounting, hitch lift cylinder, hoses, grommets, and tank? And where do the front lines that I constantly see running to the front through the grommets go?

EDIT: Nevermind; think I answered my own question. They go to the pump/pulley assembly, which mounts under the hood and connects to the shaft pulleys via belt. Dunno how I left out the arguably most important part... the PUMP!

(Prolly because I haven't seen one on eBay yet, but finally ran across a compete assembly on CL, then dug up a diagram on Groups...)

Edited by dzignr_tastz, April 02, 2015 - 09:42 PM.


#17 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted April 16, 2015 - 10:27 PM

Guess I'm just gonna use this thread as my "current random questions of necessity" one for now.

Doesn't the front PTO run at 2200 rpm at a max 3600 rpm engine speed? Anyone know if the mid-PTO runs at the same rpm, or does it run full speed? Additionally, any clue what the stock hydraulic pump spins at with the stock 4" pulley in relation to the mid-PTO speeds? Couldn't find specifics in the manuals, or overlooked them.

Also, the tandem transmission doesn't have any bearing on the PTO speeds, does it? I know it's required for the tillers, but isn't it just an for added gear reduction for the differential, and thus tractor movement speed while tilling? I can only imagine there's some sort of reduction gear in the tiller itself to further reduce the rpm of the tines in relation to PTO speed (as 2200 rpms seems mighty quick), but don't see the rear tranny having any reverse affect on the other side of the engine...

Bear with me. Contemplating a loader with an aftermarket pump that needs a subframe fabbed and think I just about have all the pieces of the puzzle worked out...

#18 David Brown OFFLINE  

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Posted April 17, 2015 - 04:47 AM

Guess I'm just gonna use this thread as my "current random questions of necessity" one for now.

Doesn't the front PTO run at 2200 rpm at a max 3600 rpm engine speed? Anyone know if the mid-PTO runs at the same rpm, or does it run full speed? Additionally, any clue what the stock hydraulic pump spins at with the stock 4" pulley in relation to the mid-PTO speeds? Couldn't find specifics in the manuals, or overlooked them.

Also, the tandem transmission doesn't have any bearing on the PTO speeds, does it? I know it's required for the tillers, but isn't it just an for added gear reduction for the differential, and thus tractor movement speed while tilling? I can only imagine there's some sort of reduction gear in the tiller itself to further reduce the rpm of the tines in relation to PTO speed (as 2200 rpms seems mighty quick), but don't see the rear tranny having any reverse affect on the other side of the engine...

Bear with me. Contemplating a loader with an aftermarket pump that needs a subframe fabbed and think I just about have all the pieces of the puzzle worked out...

The front PTO I believe is a 2000 RPM unit.  It's the only PTO on the tractor.  The clutch pulley has grooves for belts to act as a mid mount PTO but the only thing that runs off of that is the hydraulic pump.

 

The dual trasmissions have nothing to do with the PTO speeds.  That set up merely slows the ground speed of the tractor so that you can use a tiller or snowblower.  It will come in handy with a front end loader also as the clutch can be a little touchy.  I think you can see where this is going.

 

As for the hydraulic pump, there are two different pumps for these tractors.  One standard pump which is rated at (it's been a while for me folks so the numbers may not be exact here) 1.7 GPM while the pump for the loader is around 7 GPM.  If your plans to add a loader are set in stone, get the larger pump now but, beware, it makes the three point VERY fast.  I used to tell people that I was waiting for the time when my three point was going to throw my counterweight over my head!

 

All that said, if you do add a loader to this machine, be careful.  They have a high center of gravity with the 24" wheels so they can get "tippy" if you're not paying attention.  In fact, in later years the manufacturer no longer recommended putting a FEL on the 24" tractors.  If your land is flat, you're probably ok.  Another thing to remember (I don't want to talk you out of this, just speaking as someone who owned one of these for years and I want to keep it real for you) these FELs are strong.  I still think my old PK FEL could lift more than my new MAssey SCUT to be honest.  You'll need to keep close watch on your front spindles.  They are long on the 24" tractor and can bend under the weight of the bucket load.  I guess it could be view as an early safety feature so as not to try to lift beyond the tractors capabilities.

 

Right now, I believe there is a newer style three point on ebay as well as a dual tranny set up.  You rarely see a complete set of hydraulics come up but I know someone who may have one.  Jerry Frank out of Texas.  I put his contact info in another thread here.  I'll have to find it and put it here.  Good luck and enjoy the tractor.  You'll appreciate the work it's able to fo for you.


Edited by David Brown, April 17, 2015 - 04:48 AM.

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#19 Alc OFFLINE  

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Posted April 17, 2015 - 05:32 AM

David Brown gave you some good advise . I will just add a few things since I've had my 2418 w/fel for almost 20 years . When I got it the po had front spindle problems and lowered the front axle and shorted the spindles . I've never tipped it but loaded it to a friend to layed it over . The front hubs on mine are stamped steel and one broke around the weld ( side not it's easy to lift the front end off to work on with the fel lol )  . You can make it more stable by moving the wheels out but then with my 36" bucket the tires stick out too far , I do have 100lb of wheel weights on each side and the tires are filled . Well right now I'm trying to decide how to go about repaired the flat one lol  . You also need to remember once you have as much weight as I have and then with a load in the bucket  the PK brakes are very weak , it make it tuff on anything but level ground to stop  . To be honest if I had a nice PK like yours I would just get a hyd lift set-up and look for a different hydro tractor for the fel  About the factory till , the ones our years use a enclosed driveshaft going the length of the tractor driven off the front pto . I don't have one for the 2418 but I do for the Jim Dandy ,I leave it on all the time because it's so big . , Good Luck Al

 

 

http://gardentractor...d-filled-tires/


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#20 Username OFFLINE  

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Posted April 17, 2015 - 10:15 AM

Dan Beomhke states that the loader on a 24 inch tractor does not go below grade very far and that is also a reason why they are not recommended for use on one.


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#21 MNGB ONLINE  

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Posted April 17, 2015 - 01:31 PM

Hi I'm going to 3x what the others have posted about the FEL, while I have not had mine as long as the others, I can assure you it makes the tractor tippy you definietly need the rear tires ballasted and wheel wt and duals make it even better, havin said that I find my to be handy and use it but in the fall I remove the arms etc to install the plow blade, the steering it also harder with the FEL installed. mine is a 1618.

And I forgot the high capacity hyd pump really makes the 3 pt and mower deck lift fast very fast, I did install a hyd flow control valve to slow it down for the times I want the 3 pt slower, that quickness on the deck lift I find to be ok.


Edited by MNGB, April 17, 2015 - 01:45 PM.

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#22 JBRamsey OFFLINE  

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Posted April 17, 2015 - 09:34 PM

Manual 3pt is little diff. Most had just a lift bar when not hydraulic. I've made those by cutting rect. tubing.of heavy weight and cutting off 1 small end, then welding nut on it. You can buy the ball sockets from farm catalogs, carefully weld on pivot studs and nut to it for threaded rod. Think I used 5/8 rod.
 
Back on puter here, easier to post than phone. Forgot you would have to make those flat-iron metals that are bent out and formed to also hold the pivot balls. I've tried to make those before, had hard time getting angles bent to come out right, but got it finally. I once made a whole hitch see, but had another one to use for copys of the parts, which made it easier. I had pix at one time, not sure I could find on here or not now.


When I need to bend thick stock and I'm not near a brake, I cheat. I lay out my steel and cut a groove with a cutoff wheel about half the thickness of the steel, bend it, fixture it somehow and then fill the groove with weld bead. If I want it to look one piece, I grind and dress it prior to paint. It works well. Looks good. And I've never had a failure.
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#23 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted April 18, 2015 - 06:14 PM

Thanks for all the replies and advice. Most of the loader issues on the 24-inchers I'm already aware of (been researching like a madman); spindles, weight, center of gravity, etc., all of which are concerns of mine. I'm looking at an older Kwik Way "Model L" with a 36" self-leveling bucket, but am a bit hesitant about the price versus condition. It seems structurally sound for the most part (but has about as much surface rust as paint) and has a brand new aftermarket pump, but the cylinders, while there, may have seen some better days (seals needed before long, if not immediately) and it's current subframe (which is included, along with some extra metal, and looks like a decent base to work off) needs to be heavily modified or a totally new one built from scratch. The unit is local to me, and probably relatively easy to find online if you take a gander. Anyone wanna throw an educated, fair ball park out there off the top of their heads? It'd be appreciated.

As for the PTO, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I didn't think the mid pulleys actually qualified as such, being part of the flywheel, and assumed they just run the same as engine rpm at any tiven time. I was just trying to figure out what the aftermarket hydraulic pump that comes with the loader would be spinning at and flowing, and if I'd need a new pulley. I'm great with pulley ratios as I have a lot of experience with superchargers, but realitively new to hydraulics. The one that's currently on there is a 4.5" OD, and it's rated for 4 gpm @ 3600 rpm (max engine rpm) with a tested 5000 rpm max, but with the ID of the mid pulleys being roughly 2" at the shaft, it would seem I'd also need a new, smaller pulley for it or I'd be turning it at less than 1800 rpms and 2 gpm. I was really hoping the pump would be able to power both the loader and the lift (if I added a cylinder and valve for it), but if the stock loader pump is 7 gpm, I'm not sure it would suffice?

Learn me, oh gurus! LOL



EDIT: Anyone know the where to pick up some good Cat 1 to Cat 0 pins, or just long Cat 0 ones? Grabbed a really good condition Cat 1 5' box blade with 5 ripper shanks yesterday at what I considered steal (especially considering the guy I bought it from just threw in the Cat 1 boom pole he loaded it with for free, which, despite being a little rough, can probably have the lower bracket cut off and replaced for Cat 0), and while I grabbed some bushings and two different style Cat 0 pins (one adjustable) at Tractor Supply, I really don't think any of them will be long enough when I turn them in. AgriSupply has some 1-0 reduction pins, but not sure they'll be long enough on the inside, either. Any firsthand advice on what you guys used for any of your conversions?

Edited by dzignr_tastz, April 18, 2015 - 08:15 PM.


#24 icpik OFFLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 09:32 AM

You will probably have to modify the pin mounts to bring the pins in and possibly lower.  If so, you can make it so that it can be used on a Cat 1 or Cat 0 tractor.  Simplist design may be a 'U' shaped rectangular bracket with lobes dropping down at the proper distance to hold the Cat 0 pins.  Remember the bracket can not rotate so it has to be either welded on or designed to lock in place.  Something like this.

 

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Don Hayes


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#25 MNGB ONLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 09:45 AM

Hi you can fabricate the Cat O lift pins from a grade 5, 5/8" bolt of the length you need cut off the threads and drill a hole in the bolt for a lock pin, or get some 5/8" round stock and cut it to the needed length.

 

I have a question you posted this  "Doesn't the front PTO run at 2200 rpm at a max 3600 rpm engine speed?" I'm curious where you got that number? The front PTO on my tractor is connected to the engine flywheel so it turns engine speed.


Edited by MNGB, April 19, 2015 - 09:50 AM.

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#26 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 12:12 PM

You will probably have to modify the pin mounts to bring the pins in and possibly lower.  If so, you can make it so that it can be used on a Cat 1 or Cat 0 tractor.  Simplist design may be a 'U' shaped rectangular bracket with lobes dropping down at the proper distance to hold the Cat 0 pins.  Remember the bracket can not rotate so it has to be either welded on or designed to lock in place.  Something like this.

 

                                                         |                          |

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                                                         ----------------------

                                                                 |            |

 

Don Hayes

 

Well I could definitely fab something similar to that if necessary; maybe just an angle iron bracket that spans the gap and sits against the pin arms to prevent rotation, with tabs to bolt into the Cat 1 pin holes. Basically, something like this...
 
 
|__|______________|__|
          |                 |
    ---- |                 | ----
 
 
... using the angle iron for the top horizontal connecting bar, with one side of it going up vertically on the front of that 2-dimensional diagram. However, I thought I'd read a scrape blade thread on here somewhere where a few said the PK 3 pt. hitch arms might just stretch far enough with long enough pins.
 
Either way, I still have some serious reservations about the PK being able to handle the overall weight of it (not to mention, my arm with the current manual lift... which can be remedied), and while I was hoping to also utilize it as a counterbalance to the loader (and vice versa), worst case, I can always resell it and make a few extra bucks to put towards a straight Cat 0 one. Seems like Ballard Fabrication makes a nice custom one, with quite a few options at a reasonable price...

 

Hi you can fabricate the Cat O lift pins from a grade 5, 5/8" bolt of the length you need cut off the threads and drill a hole in the bolt for a lock pin, or get some 5/8" round stock and cut it to the needed length.

 

I have a question you posted this  "Doesn't the front PTO run at 2200 rpm at a max 3600 rpm engine speed?" I'm curious where you got that number? The front PTO on my tractor is connected to the engine flywheel so it turns engine speed.

 

I have absolutely NO idea (and leave it to me to spread misinformation - LOL)!!
 
I tried to go back and look and see where I got that number from, and I'm thinking I was figuring that the 2000 (not 2200) rpm speed listed on TractorData for the optional rear PTO was somehow a shaft (like the tiller has) run off the front PTO (and actually, while looking back, I see the PK manual actually does list "Two PTO's are standard equipment. Sheave on front... Three groove pulley behind engine..."), and just assumed that was the (max) speed the drive PTO ran at. Not sure how the rear PTO kit is designed, though, so maybe there's a reduction gear in it?
 
And the problem with using bolts (or even round stock, without threads) is that with using a 7/8 to 5/8" bushing in the Cat 1 pin holes, unless I actually have a nut (and thus, threads) to actually bolt the pins onto the box blade, I could stand the chance (however slim) of the bushings working themselves out while in use? The nuts would actually help keep the pins both secure and the bushings in the hole.
 
I guess, depending on how long the bolt is and how much non-threaded area I have between the threads and bolt head, I could leave enough threads on it to go through the bushing, with a nut on each side (just like the - too short - adjustable pins I grabbed at TS), and then use the non-threaded portion for the smooth section to slide into the hitch arm? Any suggestions on what grade and material bolt I should go with to support that kind of weight without bending at the necessary length?


#27 icpik OFFLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 06:42 PM

A five foot box blade may be too much for your Power King.  I pull an aerator with my 2414.  Normally I load four 70 lb weights for a total of 300 lbs including the aerator.  One time I added two additional weights which made the weight about 440 lbs.  The hydraulics did lift the load, but it was not happy.  I removed the additional weights and we were back on good terms again.  Also I pull a five foot landscape rake.  I can stop the tractor if I inadvertantly grab too much gravel.  I have fluid filled ag tires.  No chains.  No rear weights.

 

I can easily see where the box blade would bog down the tractor with too much load.  You might be better off with two peices of equipment.  A landscape rake to break things up and a rear blade to move the material.  Just a thought.

 

Don Hayes


Edited by icpik, April 19, 2015 - 06:50 PM.

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#28 dzignr_tastz OFFLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2015 - 08:03 PM

A five foot box blade may be too much for your Power King. I pull an aerator with my 2414. Normally I load four 70 lb weights for a total of 300 lbs including the aerator. One time I added two additional weights which made the weight about 440 lbs. The hydraulics did lift the load, but it was not happy. I removed the additional weights and we were back on good terms again. Also I pull a five foot landscape rake. I can stop the tractor if I inadvertantly grab too much gravel. I have fluid filled ag tires. No chains. No rear weights.

I can easily see where the box blade would bog down the tractor with too much load. You might be better off with two peices of equipment. A landscape rake to break things up and a rear blade to move the material. Just a thought.

Don Hayes


Well removing the shanks when not in use should free up at least some weight, and I actually read (on here again, I think) that with a 5' vs. a 4', you don't have to load it up quite as much to get the same amount of work done, so the weight kind of evens out? I'll give it a shot, but the deal breaker may be the lift capability...

Yours single or tandem tranny? Still plan on adding a second, which would increase pulling capacity at the sacrifice of speed.

Edited by dzignr_tastz, April 19, 2015 - 08:04 PM.


#29 Alc OFFLINE  

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Posted April 20, 2015 - 05:43 AM

Be careful  on lifting with your 3 pt , the 2418 I bought the po had the rear tires filled , had 16 x 7 truck brake drums filled with concrete , he cracked the frame around the rear and it caused the trans to break . .   


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#30 David Brown OFFLINE  

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Posted April 20, 2015 - 06:56 AM

I wouldn't go above a 4 foot box blade.  It's not so much a weight issue as it is a capacity issue.  Even at 4 feet the box can fill to the point you loose traction, especially is you are grading up hill.  On my limestone driveway I would loose traction grading up hill with a regular rear blade.  Remember, a bulk of these tractors have a float position in the hydraulics.  I bring that up because I ran into a person one time who had owned their Power King for a number of years and never realized that it had a float position.  As a rule, I always wanted 4 feet for a box blade, 5 feet for a straight blade or rock rake (anything that you can angle so you can still cover your tracks) and I always preferred a 4 foot bucket on the loader.  It kind of stinks when you can get your bucket into a narrow space but you have to stop when it comes to your wheels.

 

Alc is right in pointing out about the frames.  Look around the rear axles and you will see where the frame is cut out around everything else.  That creates a weak spot and I know if some that have let go.  Mine never did and I put mine through things that no small tractor should be doing.  I was always told that it made a difference as to what day of the week the tractor was built.  Mondays after a weekend of consuming large quantities of adult beverages, Wednesday where everything is all business or Friday when everyone is thinking about the adult beverages.  I really don't know if any of that is true but it would explain a lot of the weld quality issues.  Don't let this scare you.  These are good solid tractors that work far beyond their means.  Like everything, they require some love every now and then.  If you ask too much, they'll let you know.  You just need to realize it before they break.  For all I've done with them, I've never had one break and I've owned quite a few of them.


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