Jump to content

Nominations for Tractor of the Month
Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

Help! My HT23 just died in the middle of my driveway.


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#16 NUTNDUN OFFLINE  

NUTNDUN

    Lost in Cyber Space

  • Admin
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 3
  • 10,266 Thanks
  • 15,618 posts
  • Location: Pennsylvania

Posted January 24, 2015 - 10:47 PM

You may end up being able to get the HT23 going without much fuss but it is still nice knowing you have a backup tractor you can count on also. I am a big fan of the snow blowers but the Bolens snow blowers have always seemed to spin too slow. At least the single stage blowers. As long as you have the weight on the back for the snow blade i would say for for the blade. 

 

The snow we had last night in to this morning started off as the light stuff which would have been perfect for the blower but it started melting and turned to slush quick. The snow blower was a waste of time. Ended up pushing most of it with the Bolens 600 and once the piles were big enough I used the front end loader on the Massey 1655 to move those piles.

 

Just because an engine smokes doesn't make it completely tired. The rings may be tired but you would be surprised in that they still make close to the factory horsepower. The Tecumseh on my Massey MF12 has smoked since the day I got it over 5 years ago. That thing will run with the best of them, smoke and all.


  • MH81, blackjackjakexxix and Toolfoole have said thanks

#17 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted January 24, 2015 - 11:03 PM

Good point! I'll go with the blade. The snow we got was pretty heavy by the time I got to it, because the temperature went up to 40 degrees today. The forecast is calling for temps in the 20s for the next few days, but the blade works in all kinds of snow.


  • blackjackjakexxix said thank you

#18 T Guiles OFFLINE  

T Guiles
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 39800
  • 952 Thanks
  • 749 posts
  • Location: upstate ny

Posted January 24, 2015 - 11:34 PM

Sorry about your bad luck, that's how it goes for me also. Like they used to sing on Hee Haw, if it wern't bad luck I'D have no luck at all. I hope it's an easy fix. If something stuck the valve open, would it have any compression at all?


  • blackjackjakexxix said thank you

#19 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted January 25, 2015 - 08:23 PM

So, I spent the day working on the 1253 and getting it ready for the oncoming snowstorm. I encountered one unexpected problem; a broken steering drag link end. Luckily I had a spare, but it needed some work on one of the ends. It had a stuck, rusted tight ball joint and the nut was rusted tight, too. I got it all loose and working good using some penetrating oil. It ain't pretty, but it works. Other things I had to do to it were as follows:

1. Removed the mower deck.
2. Drained the old stale fuel.
3. Did an oil change.
4. Installed the chains and wheel weights.
5. Mounted the plow blade.

Amazingly, the battery didn't need a jump, it cranked just fine. It's amazing because it hadn't been started since early last summer. All it needed was a shot of carb cleaner in the carb and it started right up. It's still smoking quite a bit, but it's running decent.

The HT23 is sitting in the driveway with a tarp over it, but it's out of the way and it'll have to wait until after all the snow we're supposed to get early in the week. They're saying an inch tonight, 1"-3" tomorrow, 4"-8" tomorrow night and "additional heavy snow accumulation" on Tuesday. I hope the engine in that 1253 holds up. :worshippy1:  They're also saying that next weekend is going to be in the 20's, so I don't know when I'll be able to get to that HT23.


  • blackjackjakexxix and Rock farmer have said thanks

#20 stanz OFFLINE  

stanz
  • Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 64272
  • 73 Thanks
  • 70 posts
  • Location: Massachusetts

Posted January 26, 2015 - 12:03 PM

 

Since the engine is tired in the 1253, which do you guys think would be easier on it for snow, the blade or the thrower? :anyone:

 

The way my luck has been going, I might end up with two broken down tractors. :wallbanging:

 

A tired 12 HP single cylinder has more power than a "modern" 12 HP engine.  Plus, the single puts out loads of torque.  It should be able to handle either task, but plowing would be much easier on the engine.  We have 14"-22" coming our way, the worst storm since the blizzard of 78.  You're not going to be able to plow it if it gets that deep, unless you have a short driveway.

 

Personally I'm looking forward to this storm; temps in the 20s so the snow should be nice and fluffy.  That will be a relief since all we've had has been snow with rain, tough to move unless you have an old snow blower.  I restored a 1964 Ariens 6/24 for a friend, it moved everything we've received this year but he decided to get a new Craftsman.  The gap between the housing and the impeller is more than 1/4", he'll never blow wet snow again.



#21 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted April 19, 2015 - 10:15 PM

OK, so it's been awhile. I finally got a chance to pull the tarp off the HT23 and started digging into it. It has been sitting in the driveway since January when it died moving snow. Due to weather and other priorities, I haven't been able to work on it until now, although I only had a few hours to do so before dark.

I must have been hallucinating when I thought I saw spark back in January, because I wasn't seeing it today. Must have been the fog of battle.  smiley-confused013.gif It is getting fuel and air, so I started with the easy things. First I checked to see if 12V was getting to the coil. It was. Next, I checked for shorts in the coil and the condenser, which are both relatively new. They seemed fine. BTW, the coil is genuine Kohler. Hmmm... So, I took the air cleaner and the top heat shield and pulled off the points cover. The points looked a little crusty, but not horrible. While observing the points, I cranked the engine. The points did not open at all. I lifted the points away from the breaker push rod and put my thumbnail on the top of the push rod and cranked the engine again. Nothing! banghead3.gif

I'm now thinking that the breaker cam inside the governor might be shot. Is the cam made out of plastic? Is the cam still available? Before I take the governor off the engine, is there anything else I can try? Taking the governor off means it would have to be re-timed when it's reinstalled.

Is there anything else that might prevent the governor shaft from turning? I guess I should have removed the timing sight hole plug to see if the governor gear was turning. It's hard to imagine what would cause the cam to go from normal to zero lift so quickly. It's got to be something else.

Any ideas?


  • MH81 said thank you

#22 MH81 ONLINE  

MH81

    Proud to be Deplorable

  • Staff Admin
  • Staff
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 802
  • 27,311 Thanks
  • 28,632 posts
  • Location: N. W. PA

Posted April 20, 2015 - 12:07 AM

Is it possible the posh rod is broken?

#23 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted April 20, 2015 - 09:58 AM

I have heard of push rods being worn down to the point that they don't cause the points to open, but I haven't heard of them breaking. They are fairly large in diameter, perhaps 3/16" and maybe an inch long, so I don't think it would be easy to break one. I've read that there were two types of push rods, aluminum and steel. Mine looks like it is made of steel.

 

Even if the rod is worn, it should still move up and down with the action of the cam. Maybe I just can't feel it with my thumbnail. I'll put a test indicator on it, next chance I get.



#24 Husky ONLINE  

Husky

    Member

  • Senior Member
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 63
  • 923 Thanks
  • 892 posts

Posted April 20, 2015 - 11:31 AM

Could you pull the points out and stick a nail or something down in there to see if you feel the cam turning against the nail.? I've had my governor off in the past, not too hard to do. I just saw a complete governor on ebay last week for not a huge price.



#25 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted April 20, 2015 - 01:25 PM

Yeah, I need to do some more investigation. First I'll pull the points off, check the condition of the contacts a little closer, and then I'll put a dial test indicator on the end of the push rod to see if it moves in and out when I turn the engine. It should only move a small amount, maybe 0.010" or so. If it's not moving at all, then I'll pull the push rod out and see if I can see any damage on the end of it and maybe put another rod in there for measuring purposes. I can make a rod on the lathe.

 

When you say you've had your governor "off in the past" and that it's "not too hard to do" what caused it to go off?

 

There are currently 4 governors on eBay, anywhere from $80 to $150. Going that route isn't a problem, I just want to make sure that I need to first. It still might be a simpler problem... I'm hoping.



#26 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted May 04, 2015 - 08:12 PM

I did a little more investigation of my HT23 problems again yesterday. I removed the valve covers and the governor inspection plug and saw that the valves were not moving and the governor gear was not turning when I cranked the engine. I did see the valves move for a fraction of a second when I first started to crank the engine, but they never moved again after that. At first I was thinking that the crankshaft or camshaft gear had come off the end of their respective shaft, but now I'm thinking that it must be a sheared key, because I don't think there is enough room under the gear cover for the gears to slide that much. Hopefully, it's not a broken camshaft. This is a newer K582 that was installed in 2001, so it may have the plastic cam gear. Being plastic have they been known to fail?

 

I was hoping that I could repair this without having to remove the engine from the tractor, but I'm told that it won't be possible. It looks like I got some work to do.


Edited by Toolfoole, May 04, 2015 - 08:12 PM.

  • blackjackjakexxix and Rock farmer have said thanks

#27 WrenchinOnIt OFFLINE  

WrenchinOnIt
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8592
  • 2,515 Thanks
  • 732 posts

Posted May 05, 2015 - 04:12 PM

I did a little more investigation of my HT23 problems again yesterday. I removed the valve covers and the governor inspection plug and saw that the valves were not moving and the governor gear was not turning when I cranked the engine. I did see the valves move for a fraction of a second when I first started to crank the engine, but they never moved again after that. At first I was thinking that the crankshaft or camshaft gear had come off the end of their respective shaft, but now I'm thinking that it must be a sheared key, because I don't think there is enough room under the gear cover for the gears to slide that much. Hopefully, it's not a broken camshaft. This is a newer K582 that was installed in 2001, so it may have the plastic cam gear. Being plastic have they been known to fail?
 
I was hoping that I could repair this without having to remove the engine from the tractor, but I'm told that it won't be possible. It looks like I got some work to do.

Hello, curious, a few questions if I may. Your opening post you reporting good to very good compression on one cylinder and very low on the other, now you see no valve movement , thus no compression on either cylinder.Initially I would have ventured a guess that the camshaft was broken and the cylinder showing good compression was the cylinder closest to the gear. I assuming the only thing done since has been cranking the engine over? My thoughts follow yours as to perhaps the teeth are/were shearing off the cam gear and now are completely gone, maybe explaining why at first you had valve movement thus compression. Just throwing this out there , I would pull the heads and make sure the valves are not stuck in position , albeit very unlikely all four would be, it would save an engine removal and at the very least verify the state of the valves. If indeed it's internal and the engine has to come out you might as well de-carbon the heads, valves, piston so I wouldn't consider it a wasted step. Just my thoughts, good luck

Regards Kevin
  • Bolens 1000 and blackjackjakexxix have said thanks

#28 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted May 05, 2015 - 07:36 PM

Hi Kevin, thanks for your thoughts. I haven't checked the compression since the day it died in January, so I don't know what I would get now, but if the right cylinder was in a compression stroke (both valves closed), when the cam stopped turning, there should still be high compression in that cylinder when I crank the engine, no? The same goes for the left cylinder if it was left with a valve slightly open, which could provide the low compression reading, I think. It seems that the only thing that turns is the crankshaft. I know for sure that the governor gear is not turning, preventing the points from opening and closing, and that the valves are not functioning. Also, I don't hear any sort of unusual noises (rattling, crunching, squealing, etc...) when I crank the engine.

 

I may end up pulling the engine anyway and will pull the heads at that time, as you suggest. I will inspect and clean everything at that time, too.


  • blackjackjakexxix and WrenchinOnIt have said thanks

#29 WrenchinOnIt OFFLINE  

WrenchinOnIt
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8592
  • 2,515 Thanks
  • 732 posts

Posted May 05, 2015 - 10:32 PM

Yes I agree with cam in said position and not turning the valves remained closed , building compression and opposite cylinder an open valve letting air out.Crank turning and valves aren't I have to believe as you suspect the cam is the culprit , as to why, it will be interesting to know your findings.

Regards Kevin
  • blackjackjakexxix said thank you

#30 Toolfoole OFFLINE  

Toolfoole

    New Member

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 8230
  • 230 Thanks
  • 133 posts
  • Location: Doylestown, PA

Posted September 12, 2015 - 09:48 PM

Well, after much delay, due to numerous unforeseen circumstances (and general laziness), I finally got the chance to tear into the HT23. It had been stranded in the driveway since January, when it died moving snow. Earlier in the mowing season, I had been using the 1253 for that role, until that engine finally gave up the ghost. The 1253 had been burning a lot of oil and smoking quite a bit. Luckily, I am blessed with a couple of great neighbors who took on the mowing duties while I was mowing-disabled. :angel:

So, a month ago, I pulled the HT23 engine and got it into the garage, so that I could work on it out of the weather. After four weekends of labor, I finally got it fixed and back into service.

 

DSC05191.JPG DSC05192.JPG

The problem turned out to be exactly what my most recent suspicion had been. That infamous plastic cam timing gear had roughly 25% of the teeth sheared completely off. :(  The rest of the teeth were chewed up pretty badly, too. The cam gear was so mangled that it actually caused damage to the plastic governor gear, as well. :wallbanging:  Before I even pulled the engine, I had purchased a steel cam gear off of eBay, thinking that it was the culprit, so I was prepared. After seeing the damage to the governor gear, I was lucky enough to find an older governor on eBay which had a steel gear on it. I didn't even know that the governor gear was steel at one time. What was Kohler thinking when they switched to plastic gears?! Maybe it was a cost-saving attempt, due to the lower-cost competition from China. :wtf: :brain_fart:

 

DSC05214.JPG DSC05217.JPG DSC05204.JPG DSC05224.JPG DSC05226.JPG

While I had the engine out, I did a number of other things, too. I removed the heads and decarbonized everything, replaced the points, removed and cleaned all the plastics bits out of the oil pan, adjusted the valves (the clearance on both intake valves was a few thou over) and painted all the engine tins. When the engine was replaced 15 years ago by the PO, they left the engine in it's original primer gray. I used Rustoleum Dark Hunter Green. I think a PO had repainted certain areas of the tractor and maybe used the same color, so it looked OK. Maybe some day I'll do a full restoration and use a more original-looking color. Right now, I'll settle for this. It definitely looks better than it did. This tractor has that working "patina".

 

DSC05221.JPG DSC05248.JPG DSC05244.JPG Engine reinstalled (small).jpg

While I had the heads off, I inspected the condition of the cylinder bores. Happily, they look nearly new! The crosshatch marks from the original honing is still visible.

 

Honing marks.jpg

 

While scraping the old gaskets off the heads, I noticed that the areas near the exhaust valves were a little harder to remove and looked somewhat dark, so I checked the flatness on a granite surface plate and determined that sure enough, both heads were slightly warped. After about a half hour of wet-sanding with 320 and 400-grit paper (on the surface plate), I had two perfectly flat heads. I probably removed no more than .002" from each. After I got the engine installed back in the tractor, I did a compression check and got 125lbs on cylinder #1 and 120lbs on cylinder #2.

 

Cyl1 compression (small).jpg Cyl2 compression (small).jpg

 

Luckily, I remembered to mark the position of the governor before I removed it, hoping that the timing would be close when I reinstalled it. I installed the plugs and then it was the moment of truth. After the fourth try, it started and after a little twiddling with the carb, it ran quite well. :dancingbanana:  I don't think it even needs any fine adjustment of the timing, but I'll probably check it anyway.

Last night I started working on the mower deck to get it prepared for the rest of the mowing season. I got the deck cleaned and the blades sharpened and balanced. Today I got the deck mounted, greased and lubed, but it rained before I could mow the lawn.

 

DSC05287-001.JPG DSC05292-001.JPG

 

All I need now is some dry weather, so I can put this beast to the test. :rocker2: :beerchug:

 

 


  • olcowhand, MH81, blackjackjakexxix and 3 others have said thanks




Top