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Can spark disappear?


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#16 wvbuzzmaster OFFLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 07:15 PM

Tomorrow I will be looking to see if we have a spare set of new plugs around and replace them. If that doesn't do it I have new set of points and condenser I can install....
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#17 dodge trucker OFFLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 09:47 PM

2 thoughts (OK 3) 

1. If you have been grinding on it and possibly dribbling gas in the carb or even ether to get it to go the plugs could be gas fouled; once they get that glaze there is no option BUT to replace plugs. Cannot tell you how many no starts (cars, just bigger 4 cycle engines) would get towed to my work with this/ pop a set (or  sometimes even just the "easiest bank") of new plugs in and fires right up... sometimes they smoke like He11 until they clear themselves out; If this winds up being the case CHANGE OIL as it is quite likely diluted with gas...

our "backup" service call truck (76 Chevy, 350/4 speed with tire service body) would do this at least once a year guaranteed... even though that thing didnt get 3K miles a year on it any more by that point.

 

2. points glazed/oxidized.. When I'd go to the grocery store w/my wife I'd  go down the toothpaste and grab a pack of those sand paper grit covered popsicle sticks right by the finger nail clippers, those popsicle sticks make great disposable point files...

Buy a set of NOS Kohler points and they even tell you that even though new that these points need cleaned upon install due to this possibility from "shelf time"

 

3.  This is a Farm tractor,  that means multi cylinder motor right?   Condensation under the distributor cap, cracked cap or corroded contacts?


Edited by dodge trucker, December 30, 2014 - 09:49 PM.

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#18 wvbuzzmaster OFFLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 10:08 PM

Answers to above concerns
1) considered the fouled oil thing, but need to get it running first. The plugs are my next attempt. I am concerned I can't see spark jumping from plug wire to plug, so not sure what is going on. The tractor ran fine around a month or so ago... And nothing changed....

I can't spray fuel or starter fluid/ether at the air intake due to canister air cleaner directly connected (short hose and bolted to the block)

2) I got in there and inspected for green points (not) and emery cloth sand papered them lightly. I cranked engine and saw them sparking.

3) sanded all the green off the rotor while I was in there as it was pretty green. Today I swapped the distributor cap and rotor with another tractor that ran (not healthy crank) because I was suspect of some erosion of the contacts in the cap. No moisture seen in here, and no change to spark.

Edited by wvbuzzmaster, December 30, 2014 - 10:10 PM.


#19 diesel nut ONLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 10:59 PM

One question based on something I ran into at work recently.  Is the tractor a 6 volt, 12 volt, or a 6 volt converted to 12 volt with an alternator?  Most of the Farmall and International tractors from that vintage that were 12 volt had a resistor going to a 6 volt coil on the distributor.  That was stock from the factory.  Had an Oliver at work that had been converted to 12 volt alternator setup with a resistor and it was doing what you described.  Spark at the points but none at the plug.  Turns out the resistor was going bad.  It would let enough juice through to spark at the points but not at the plugs.  Changed it with a new one and it fired right up.  Easiest way to test for that is to take the wire off the power in side of the coil and put a jumper wire right to the battery from the coil.  If it then has spark at the points thats probably the issue.  Don't forget to take the jumper off after.  Hope this helps.          Stewart


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#20 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 11:01 PM

I'm betting on Either Bad Coil or the Coil HT lead.

 

 

If the Coil HT lead is bad it will not spark the distributor but it will spark the Points.A bad Coil will also not spark the distributor but the points will fire. 

 

 

With a bad condenser the points will fire but it won't Jolt the coil with enough amperage to fire the Coil.

 

Had a Cub Cadet that someone put an NGK Resistor type TH lead (coil wire) on and it ran fine one day and the next day it wouldn't fire.Changed it out for an Old used Solid wire core HT Lead off of another tractor and it started up immediately.  



#21 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 11:04 PM

Good point @diesel nut.

 

Forgot about the old resistors.They can be a pain in the butt.



#22 diesel nut ONLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 11:08 PM

Once you clean the plugs it should fire right up now that you have fresh winter blend gasoline in the tank.  You likely fouled the plugs with summer blend gas before they had a chance to fire.

Not trying to be smart but what exactly is winter blend gas?  I know what it is for diesel but have never heard about it for gas



#23 wvbuzzmaster OFFLINE  

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Posted December 30, 2014 - 11:26 PM

This tractor is a factory 12 volt setup. I have 12 volts to the coil with the key on, checked it earlier. Tomorrow I hope to get it to run, I predict points and condenser replacement...

#24 DougT ONLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 12:07 AM

 

I thought if a plug had spark it was good, but I guess not!!

 

!

I usually figure a rule of thumb is that you need at least 5 times the gap outside the cylinder that you do inside. The difference is the compression.


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#25 farmerall ONLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 01:45 AM

Still summer blend gasoline, but not 6-8 months old like what I drained out.

It's an International, it should run fine on gas that old. My cub was running on almost two year old gas just fine. That gas wouldn't light with a flame to it when I took it out of the tank though lol.

 

Like the others suggested I would try another set of plugs first. If that doesn't work I would try replacing the condenser.


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#26 Sparky OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 07:36 AM

Dummy me should have remembered that the condenser and coil act together to give an electrical big kick flywheel effect . The things you have to remember and know to participate in these forums .....

#27 chieffan OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 08:21 AM

Plugs will fire good out of the head but will not fire under pressure.  I do not use Champion plugs for any of my engines.  They are [prone to fouling and don't last.  I use NGK but if I can't get them and really need a plug I will us a  Delco.   Also a bad condenser will cause a lot of ignition problems like not starting, not running right, burning up points fast, etc.  Just speaking from  60+ years experience being around engines.  Good luck.


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#28 Bmerf OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 11:15 AM

Not trying to be smart but what exactly is winter blend gas?  I know what it is for diesel but have never heard about it for gas

Not exactly sure what they do to it, but supposedly makes for easier starts in cold weather. The down side is a loss of economy. My daily driver lost ~1-2 miles to the gallon due to winter blend. Happens every year, most people don't notice, We have been on winter gas for the past month or so.


Edited by Bmerf, December 31, 2014 - 11:15 AM.

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#29 MH81 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 12:31 PM

Plugs will fire good out of the head but will not fire under pressure.  I do not use Champion plugs for any of my engines.  They are [prone to fouling and don't last.  I use NGK but if I can't get them and really need a plug I will us a  Delco.   Also a bad condenser will cause a lot of ignition problems like not starting, not running right, burning up points fast, etc.  Just speaking from  60+ years experience being around engines.  Good luck.


Every time I use a Champion, I hurt my shoulder throwing it as far as I can. So often, that's the problem.
The only exception; I will intentionally buy them for my Continental Flat Heads. The F series was built to run them, and I swear they do run better with them. Maybe it's all in my head, but...
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#30 adamjd200 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 31, 2014 - 12:46 PM

Every time I use a Champion, I hurt my shoulder throwing it as far as I can. So often, that's the problem.
The only exception; I will intentionally buy them for my Continental Flat Heads. The F series was built to run them, and I swear they do run better with them. Maybe it's all in my head, but...

I run them in my Briggs as that was what they were meant to use, otherwise NGK all the way.


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