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1968 Sears Ss12 - Alternate Hydro Filter?

super hydro-trac filter cross-reference hydrostatic

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#31 Sawdust OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 12:22 AM

My concern is the neck dosen't seat deep enough for the flat top o ring to do any good but I have one on there.
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#32 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 12:33 AM

Good point. 



#33 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 05:09 AM

I think it is the 'job' of the spring under it to keep the filter aligned. If the new filter is shorter in height, the spring is not a compressed.


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#34 Sawdust OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 10:40 AM

I think it is the 'job' of the spring under it to keep the filter aligned. If the new filter is shorter in height, the spring is not a compressed.

Kenny I think the filter bodies are the same in length but it's the neck on the top that is longer. The neck on mine is tapered so it doesn't go all the way up into the tank. The flat top O ring has no purpose like this because the longer length doesn't allow it to seat....confused.


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#35 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 11:54 AM

Since I haven't been into my Jake's hydro yet, I can only speculate on your comments about fit. But, on the Jake, the part that holds the filter is nearly on top.


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#36 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 04:49 PM

I think it is the 'job' of the spring under it to keep the filter aligned. If the new filter is shorter in height, the spring is not a compressed.

 

Kenny, thank you for your input. I believe you are right that the spring will probably hold the filter in alignment.

 

 

Kenny I think the filter bodies are the same in length but it's the neck on the top that is longer. The neck on mine is tapered so it doesn't go all the way up into the tank. The flat top O ring has no purpose like this because the longer length doesn't allow it to seat....confused.

 

Your continuing input is appreciated.  I agree.  I am wondering if maybe there is or was a New Holland part number companion to this filter that was a tall tapered cylindrical seal?  Not that I would use the following, but I'm envisioning something like a 5/16 wide slice of 1-1/4" ID neoprene hose.

 

Can anyone confirm that following?:

 

It appears to me that the flow cannot go from the pan, into the filter and up into the engine because both the inner and outer sheet metal walls of the filter are perforated with holes.  That is:  If the flow went IN through the filter, the pump would draw from the path of lease resistance and suck a lot of air from above the oil level and/or cavitate badly.

 

Therefore, I am thinking that the flow probably goes in the pipe in the corner (the one near the fill hole.  It is the pipe that nearly reaches the bottom of the pan) and that the fluid transits through the hydro and exits through the filter and back into the pan.

 

If the above is true:

 

If true, then the filter spring and filter act together as a rudimentary filter bypass.  This may explain why the New Holland filter neck was redesigned. 

 

It may also explain why people think these filters can run forever; at some point, they are simply bypassing most of the time.  As stated before, my hydro took 24 hours to drizzle out the last quart with the old filter in place.  Remove that old filter and that last quart came out in less than a minute.  To me, that means the old filter was badly flow restricted. 

 

Back to the different NH neck design:  - As regards filter bypasses in general, the total surface area where the oil pressure is allowed to exert pressure influences how soon the opposing spring pressure will be defeated - aka, when the filter will drop a bit and start to bypass.  This may occur cold with thicker fluid or when the filter starts to become clogged.  Maybe it isn't that big a difference since the largest filter area exposed to fluid pressure appears to be the bottom cap of the filter (internal surface area)

 

If the oil flow goes the direction I'm guessing as hypothesized above, my tractor's old filter had a significant portion of the top flat surface exposed to oil pressure and flow.  Whereas, the New Holland filter has just the top of the neck seating against the housing.  Much less surface area means the NH filter should bypass at a significantly higher fluid pressure meaning less bypass time each warmup, etc.

 

Anyway, the new filter and pan are back on.  I'm not going to discuss some mods I made because they are ugly and dangerous; I believe they will work but would never wish them on anyone else.  Too risky.

 

One note:  Before filter installation this time, I checked the 3 socket head screws above the filter for tightness.  Just by hand and guestimates, but I would say 2 of 3 had breakaway torque of about 50 inch pounds.  The 3rd bolt was tight and didn't move.  I took the 2 that were not so tight up to maybe 125 inch pounds; guessing there.  

 

I will report back if my hydro lives or grenades or something in between after startup.  From a test bead last night, I'm finding that "The Right Stuff" sealer (TRS hereafter) is curing extremely slowly due to low humidity and 40 degree temps so I probably won't refill and bleed out the hydro until middle of next week.

 

I recognize that TRS instructions say that no curing time is necessary before usage; that oil contaminated surfaces are tolerated but I don't personally agree with either of those assertions based on some jobs that came back to me when I was wrenchin' for a living.

 

Ok, back out to drill and tap the stripped out & missing  grease zerq hole in the steering sector shaft... edit:  nothing in my garage can drill that shaft.  I went ahead and sealed the passage shut, removed the sector, cleaned and greased it with Mobil 1 synthetic grease; reassembled.  The grease in there was ancient and hardened; took awhile to get it out.  The shaft showed no wear; not surprising since it is hard as a file.    
 


Edited by MountainMichael, December 06, 2014 - 09:24 PM.

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#37 Oo-v-oO OFFLINE  

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Posted December 06, 2014 - 11:52 PM

The suction side of the charge pump definitely draws through the filter. 


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#38 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2014 - 06:16 AM

The suction side of the charge pump definitely draws through the filter. 

So that would help keep it sealed!


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#39 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted December 07, 2014 - 06:24 AM

I just ordered one of these filters for my Jake! Wanted to get one before they disappeared!


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#40 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 12, 2014 - 08:01 PM

Updates:

 

I left some gasket sealer I don't fully trust cure for a week due to ultra low humidity.  So I finally went ahead and filled up the hydro and bled it out today.  I ran it all over my property for an hour after that. 

 

The main news is this:  After just a fluid change awhile back, I'd mentioned that this hydro continued to have some fairly pronounced whine with the lever full forward and going up steep hills.  It was what I would characterize as a whine that was about like a medium noisy power steering pump but only near full lever and uphill.

 

With the new filter, there is NO whine when climbing that same hill over and over again.  It is GONE.  :beer:

 

There is a different kind of deceleration whine that is very minor and that remains unchanged from before.  I believe it is minimal gear whine.  I'm not going to sweat it.  This hydro is functioning beautifully well, IMHO.

 

I refilled after the filter once again with Valvoline full synthetic Dexron VI.   

 

I also want to believe that the hydro is a little freer at full lever/full throttle and uphill but that is subjective and I have no proof.  This part is probably in my noggin'.  Or, it is more likely the newly rebuilt HH120 is breaking in and loosening up.  That makes more sense now that I think about it since the bore/hone was done at minimum Teccy piston clearance of .003".  

 

While I was at it, I took some measurements to clarify for my own use and to support an opinion on where full fluid level should be and what capacity is - approximately.  Those details and pictures follow below.

 

What is full hydro fluid level?

 

I Googled the heck out of this.  Looking in various sites, it appears people tend to use a zip-tie as a dipstick.  Using a zip-tie as a dipstick, opinions seemed to vary from 1" to 1-1/4" but nobody seemed to verify if they were measuring with or without the lower dipstick fitting in place or not.  1" seemed to be the majority opinion I found in my searches.  I assumed it was without the fitting in place.  It appears 1" is probably right. 

 

In fact, I believe correct full level is 1" down from the seat in the hydro housing where the dipstick fittings seat.  For clarity:  This is with the lower fitting below the dipstick removed as well. 

 

As a guideline:  That is also about when my manual fluid pump started blowing back bubbles and spitting out some fluid. 

 

Below are details in support of the 1" level:

 

Ok, first up, using the Jacobsen hydro training segment kindly sent to me by IamSherwood (sincere THANKS!), I found a passage that said that the hydro should be filled to the "bottom of the fill hole".  That Jacobsen hydro looks almost identical to what is in my Sears.  

 

So how far down is the bottom of the fill hole?  I shoulda' measured it while the pan was off, but no, that would have been too easy.  :rolling: So I made a gadget to check and it is very nearly 1 inch down from the top seat of the hole with fittings removed.  If you leave the first fitting in place and tightened, it is then 1-1/2" from the full fluid level to the top of that fitting.   

 

About the below pic:  The gadget is a 1/4NC bolt that I ground down so the head would fit down the fill hole and operate as a hook to find the bottom of the fill hole.  The red line on it indicates the depth of the fill hole from the seat.  It is right near 1 inch.  If my measurement is to be trusted, the exact measurement is 1-1/32".  That is, one thirty-second over an inch; expressed as a decimal, 1.03" approximately.    

 

For reference, in the photo, the 3 inch mark of the ruler is lined up with the bottom seat of the lower dipstick fitting.  If you like mm, the metric ruler is lined up at the same place at the zero mark.

 

The red line on the OEM (broken) dipstick tube is to highlight a ring marking placed on the tube by the manufacturer.  I believe this was an "add" line since everything else indicates the full level should be considerably higher than that:

 

OEM dipstick and measuring hook.jpg

 

Below is just the broken dipstick photographed in overview - also with rulers to provide scale:

 

Just the broken dipstick - overview.jpg

 

Capacity - my observations:

 

In recap, removing the filter made the last fluid - maybe 3/4 of a quart come out FAST instead of over the course of 24 hours without filter removal.  This plus the change in whine causes me to believe that my old filter was significantly restricted.  Nothing was visible in the filter, so maybe it is microscopic debris and/or fluid varnish?

 

After filter removal this time, the hydro was allowed to drip out for a few hours. 

 

I carefully marked the jug I was using as my reservoir as I filled it - 1 quart at a time.  Thereafter, it appears to me that the total fluid I put in including 2 rounds of bleeding air out was very nearly 2-3/4 quarts.

 

First fill before start up and before bleeding the air out was just a hair less than 2-1/8 quarts. 

 

1st round of bleeding was done with the wheels up off the ground on a safe jack with no load - tractor carefully leveled.  Then:  Hydro lever gently to full forward for 5 seconds, back to neutral and reverse for 5 seconds, repeat 6 times.  Shut down, measure and refill while still cold.  This required quite a bit of fluid and I consider it to be important and necessary work in refilling.

 

2nd round of bleeding was as in above except longer intervals:  15 seconds forward and reverse times 6.  The hydro was still cool albeit no longer cold.  This round of bleeding scarcely dropped the level at all but I went ahead and put in a few pumps of fluid until the zip-tie dipstick showed exactly 1 inch down from the machined seat of the fill hole (with no fittings in place).  This 2nd top up may not be as important as the first.  However, with variance in machines and how long it takes to get the air out, it is probably still a good idea IMHO.

 

Some have said that it takes a long time to get ALL the air out.  Not sure if that is true, but I'll probably check it again after a few hours of run time and then probably once a year. 

 

Conclusion:

 

As I've said right along, I'm experienced with autos - but alas, not with garden tractors.  I'm doing my best to learn as I go.  Additionally, I have little experience or knowledge of tractor hydrostatic drives.  So if I've gaffed anything above, I am hoping the GTT hydro knowledgeable membership will post corrections and/or added info as needed.

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Micke

 

 

edit:  I went ahead and dug up info on Dexron VI fluid.  It is considered backwards compatible to Dex 3 and to original Dexron.  In general, Dex 6 is less viscous when new than Dex 3 (especially at cold temps) but breaks down less so it actually has significantly more viscosity than Dex 3 at the end of either fluid's service life.

 

History:  If the reference I read was correct, the original Dexron was also initially known as Type B transmission fluid and was then considered a direct replacement for the defunct Type A trans fluid.  It appears type A was first in use in 1947.  That surprises me but I guess the slush boxes back then had to use something, no? 

 

It appears much of the web info about problems with Dexron were probably with the Dex 2 variants.  It's why there were progressively later alphabetical variants of Dex 2.  Appears Dex 2 was changed 3 different times due to the problems.  It's unclear to me if the Dex 2 problems were related in any way to the legislated prohibitions on usage of whale oil additives or not.  That may have been earlier.

 

2nd edit:  I now believe it is possible that the longer neck of the New Holland filter is so a bigger variance in fluid level may be tolerable before cavitation or air entrainment happens.  Please follow your own counsel about whether the filters with longer necks are stable enough with mostly just the spring for stability.  I think they are probably ok but I don't want to give bad advice.       


Edited by MountainMichael, December 12, 2014 - 08:34 PM.

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#41 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted December 12, 2014 - 08:11 PM

I got my Jake filter today! I'll be coming back to this thread when I change the fluid & filter. Thanks for sharing your views and discoveries with us!


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#42 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 16, 2014 - 06:41 PM

UPDATE - looks like my oil level guestimate may be wrong:

 

1.)  After all my bistro math regarding the hydro oil level, I've been flushing my differential with the tractor diff up on a jack and tractor running at about 3/4 throttle; hydro lever full forward.  During this run time, the hydro started a rhythmic dripping out of the dipstick/vent tube.  I timed it:  It would run for about 75 seconds with no drips, then it would have a fit of dripping at about 3 per second for 12 seconds.  It repeats right now.

 

So, while it is possible this is due to an odd or worn hydro, I guess I'm going to have to change camps from the 1" down from the dipstick hole to the 1-1/4" down.

 

Temp of the hydro during the above was only warm.  I could lay my hand on the hydro oil pan and the temp was just shy of discomfort so maybe 110 degrees.

 

I don't know if overfilled might cause some other leaks so I'll probably use a fluid sucker and draw it down to 1-1/4" while cold - before next usage if possible.  

 

2.)  Not related to hydros, but I thought I'd mention about the decel whine I was having.  A day or two ago, it suddenly got worse with the new power and hold back of the engine.  Much worse on decel and reverse but some new noise including forward gear whine - so I immediately stopped and moved the tractor into the garage and discontinued use.

 

What I found:  I don't remember this from 5 months ago, but for whatever reason, I had refilled the tractor's differential with Redline Heavy Shockproof gear oil.  Probably did that because it was what was in my diff grease reservoir/pump for a knuckle draggin' Mustang.

 

Shockproof is a weird red/pink opaque gear lube (looks about like arterial blood) is made with full synthetic 75w gear oil and then it is hyped massively with anti wear/anti-impact heavy metals and oxides.  My suspicion is:  This gear oil does not climb well enough to lube the full stack of diff gears and idlers or what not.  I'm not sure what is inside the diff and I don't have time to look right now; but that's my guess.

 

I had some Amsoil Severe Gear 75-140 on the shelf collecting dust that the 'stang doesn't like so I heated the diff with a box heater to 90 degrees, drained the Redline blood-like slop, then filled with the Amsoil SG and ran the tractor for 20 minutes just on a jack with no load.  About 2/3 forward, 1/3 reverse.  It maybe quieted what no load howling I could hear a bit.  Repeated with more Amsoil.  Yeah, I know, it's an expensive flush.  But the stuff has been unused for years.  2nd time with the Amsoil flush, significant reduction in noise I thought - could be my imagination?  Ya' never know...

 

Drain.  Controversial, but because I believe the differential was damaged somewhat, I then refilled with Lucas 85w140.  The stuff they used to brag was the best climbing gear oil, etc etc.  Yeah, probably marketing puff.  Remember the weird clear plastic gear crank gadget displays at the parts stores? :rolling:   I also dosed it with Lucas non-synth oil stabilizer fairly heavily.  Shake like mad.  What a workout; the stuff has viscosity just shy of peanut butter.  Argh.  I'm not a fan of heavy oils OR band-aids. 

 

Just ran the tractor around and 90% of the gear whine and howling is gone - chatter or almost grinding vibes are totally gone thank goodness.  It is quiet enough that people with damaged ears like me would have to listen for it now - quieter than before the problem escalated.  Appears I may (or may not?) have lucked out this time.  I don't recommend the above except as a band-aid for a damaged diff - and then, say a prayer like I did. 

 

Just before the last fill, I remembered I had some spare "Gold Plug" neodymium magnet drain plugs in my tool chest for vehicles long since gone... checked and sure enough, there was one there that would fit my Sears Super.  So that should do a better job of grabbing and holding magnetic garbage than the long since dead OEM magnet plug; if it ever was a magnet..??

 

Well, the only thing in this post related to the thread is the possibly overfilled hydro at 1" but I wanted to mention the diff, too, so maybe someone else can avoid such damage.  I would suggest NOT using Redline Shockproof in these diffs.  YMMV. 

 

Micke

 

 

edit:  While replacing tie rod ends with heim joints (and seals) this evening, it crossed my mind that when I first brought the tractor home and drained the diff, it only had about a pint in it.  If references for hydro tractors are correct, the diff should have 2 pints (aka, a quart) of diff gear oil.  My uncle used to mow often on a steep hillside with the tractor so with low gear oil, there was probably some damage back then.  Since I really don't like thicker gear oils than necessary, I may try to find a good climbing 90w since that is what is specced for diffs on hydro tractors and try that briefly; see if it will remain quiet without the peanut-butter-like Lucas.  OTOH, the saying:  "...if it works, don't fix it..." - comes to mind. 


Edited by MountainMichael, December 16, 2014 - 09:40 PM.

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#43 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

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Posted December 16, 2014 - 10:42 PM

Hello Michael, I've really enjoyed reading this thread and your other one about rebuilding your engine.  What I've seen of your unit here does really remind me of the hydro unit in my Massey 12 Hydro.  It has the same type dipstick.  What I found was that because of the design, the "dipstick/vent tube" tended to keep spitting out fluid every time the hydro warmed up.  I think later Masseys solved this problem by adding an auxiliary tank for fluid to expand and contract from.  I decided to add an overflow tank to mine and have been very happy with the results. 

 

http://gardentractor...lives/?p=368050

 

Above is my write-up.


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#44 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 16, 2014 - 11:04 PM

Howard, thank you very much.  I really appreciate the idea and the link to your excellent thread.  I very much enjoyed reading it.   :thumbs:

 

Was the bottom/internal portion of your hydro dipstick/vent tube broken off like mine is?  I'm wondering if that may be a contributing factor to the spitting since the return tube seems to be in close proximity to the dipstick/vent.

 

As well, I read that you observed that some of the fluctuation in expansion tank level was probably from the hydro bleeding air out.  Great info!

 

Appears you changed the top hook of the dipstick to better work with the expansion tank.  That makes sense.  

 

I'm going to see if I can find a narrow coolant expansion tank that I might fit inside the fender... although, snow chains might just eat that.  :wallbanging:

 

Took some measurements.  Looks like a Nalgene 12 ounce water/booze flask will fit under there safely.  These aren't the chem lab nalgene anymore but the flask is PET plastic with a polycarbonate (Lexan) sleeve.  Ordered flask and two 1/4 hose x 1/8 NPT fittings.  I'll post pics if I can get this securely under the fender halfway cleanly.  I plan on mounting it inverted with a fitting pointing down out of the cap, venting it on top and straining the dirt out with maybe with a small mesh fuel filter and a down hose kinda like the crankcase breather hose. 

 

Micke

 

edit:  I believe I will make a new dipstick/vent tube with some brake line tubing and a ferule.  My thought is a continuation of what was in Howard's thread:  If the broken vent is replaced with something that once again dips well below the fluid level surface, will this reduce splashing or surging when the hydro return is surfacing air bubbles in that area?  I'm trying it mostly for curiosity's sake to quantify what role the broken tube has in the overflow problem.  I believe Howard is on track with this so I expect it will improve things.


Edited by MountainMichael, December 17, 2014 - 12:17 PM.

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