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1968 Sears Ss12 - Alternate Hydro Filter?

super hydro-trac filter cross-reference hydrostatic

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#16 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 04:50 PM

THE NEW HOLLAND JAC545440 FILTER may or may not acceptably fit my 1968 Sears Super Hydro-Trac 12.  Please see notes and pics regarding longer gooseneck and different seating method and make your own decision.

 

Edit/warning:  During and after installation, the neck on the New Holland filter is very probably not a good fit in the Sears hydro housing.  That filter was tilting all over the place on the spring while trying to seat the pan/plate.  I'm not confident I have the filter seated properly - maybe the filter tipped over??  And with this neck's fit, I doubt it would be possible to have confidence after installation.  I've got the creeps about it.  I may just pull the pan and see about modifying the neck or using the old filter.  

 

I do not know if maybe this particular filter just has an out of spec top cap or what is going on.   

 

 

 

A spate of pictures follows - some with a ruler for scale.

 

Observations:  

 

1.)  The gasket stayed fully in one piece attached to the aluminum housing

2.)  There was a slight haze of wear materials on the pan/plate - less than .005" thick 

3.)  I knew it would fit even under the tractor when I saw the PN Sawdust referenced inked on the old filter

4.)  The gooseneck on the New Holland filter is slightly longer.  IMHO, it will not be a problem but please see footnotes (*) and decide for yourself. 

5.)  The spring recess on the NH filter is less sharply formed; might take more balance during install

6.)  The drain plug is trying to strip.  Appears this is due to the plug itself having threads end too soon up by the head.  I'll deal with it; no biggie.

7.)  NO seal was present between the filter and the trans housing.  I'm going to do that differently I think

8.)  This particularly old filter did NOT fall apart on disassembly.  While I want the old filter for a last resort spare, I went ahead and pulled on the end caps hard.  I couldn't get it to come apart.  So whatever metal fatigue or weld failures may be making some fall apart, this one hasn't done that.

 

I also tried crushing the old filter to the tune of maybe about 30 pounds; it doesn't flex and remains unharmed so the new filter with added spring pressure probably won't harm the sheet metal reinforced filter. 

 

Maybe important:  Whereas the fluid drain a few months ago took overnight to get the last quart out of the upper reaches, once the filter is removed, it drains FAST.  Does this mean the filter was restrictive due to contaminants or design?  I don't know.  Just thought I'd mention it before someone else gets a faceful of fluid.

 

(*)  Longer gooseneck discussion:  Due to the shorter gooseneck, the old filter seated flat to flat - that is the top flat sheet metal of the filter to the flat surface in the housing.  Whereas, the new filter with longer gooseneck seats the tapered neck into the bore - the flat surfaces do not touch.  This makes the bottom/spring seat area of the new filter maybe 3/16" lower.  That is, about 1-1/16" from filter spring seat to gasket flange instead of 1-1/4".  The pan plate is very thick and the spring isn't particularly strong so it should deal with this added spring pressure ok as long as the filter doesn't collapse.  I doubt the filter will collapse due to the sheet metal surround.  The old filter showed some fine metal residue where it has been wearing flat to flat.

 

The spring wire is pretty thin so I don't think the added installed spring compression is going to create a problem.  However, will having the gooseneck kind of wedged into the hole in the housing cause more or less fine metallic wear from vibes than the original?  I don't know.  I'm going to look for a neoprene or nitrile washer or O-ring that might seal better... and decide whether to use it - or NOT.

 

(edit:  I'm questining this neck thing after installation.  While trying to seat the pan, that filter was tilting all over the place.  I hope it didn't flip sideways.  Guess I'll know pretty quickly after startup!  I'm beginning to wonder if this particular stamping is just out of spec.) 

 

Because info was so scarce back when I searched prior to this thread, I took a LOT of pics.  Probably excessive, but ya' know how that is.

 

Pics ensue:

 

Overview.jpg

 

Filters overview.jpg

 

Closer top view of filters.jpg

 

Longer gooseneck.jpg

 

Bottom of filters.jpg

 

Bottom of filters with ruler.jpg

 

Closer view of bottom of filters.jpg

 

Trans pan.jpg

 

Dipstick piece.jpg

 

Ok, back out to the garage to see if I can find a fat O-ring... that I may or may not use.

 

I may or may not try pushing the new filter up into place with some minimal force and twisting the filter to see if maybe the flats might touch - not that they need to.  If I pull this gaff, I'll be sure to wipe out any metal created by this before final assembly.  

 

mm


Edited by MountainMichael, December 05, 2014 - 08:43 PM.

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#17 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 05:07 PM

I think you have a winner there! Good luck with it!


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#18 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 06:10 PM

Thanks, KennyP.

 

I went ahead and tried the neck in the trans housing and worked it back and forth somewhat.  Even with force applied, the surface friction was very smooth and put me in mind of a good contact.  I believe it was the very top radius of the filter neck seating somewhere fairly high in the large chamfer that leads up to the bored passage in the aluminum trans housing.  It left only a very slight polished line on the filter sheet metal neck.  

 

The O-rings I have on hand are nitrile aka buna-N - so they are not acceptable for ATF resistance. 

 

I considered a couple of different sealers that are ATF resistant that I may go ahead and use on the used gasket.  But if I place that on the filter neck and the slightest micro dab of it gets past the neck unfiltered, this hydro will likely be destroyed.  That is to say:  I've read that hydros are highly intoleratant of contaminants.  Since balancing the pan, spring and filter will already be a bit of a circus act, best to omit the goo on the neck IMHO.  

 

So it's high time to stop overthinking it and just install it as is.  Back to the garage for some meticulous cleaning, some sealer on the gasket surface of the pan only (finger beveled to reduce extrusion into the trans) and reassembly.

 

BTW, I compressed the spring by hand and it is not high tension at all.  I compressed it to about 1/2 height without a lot of hand strength applied.  So the added compression of the spring with the new filter is no longer of any concern to me personally.  

 

 

edit:  The new filter was dusty inside.  It's probably been on the shelf for a long time.  So I applied very light vacuum cleaner flow - carefully attentuated for slight flow only.  The dust appears to be gone.  I do not personally recommend sticking the filter smack dab onto a shop vac because I believe that would damage the media.  That is to say, it is not engineered to be a high flow air filter.  YMMV and - "...ya' makes yer bets and ya' takes yer chances..." as the man said. 


Edited by MountainMichael, December 05, 2014 - 06:24 PM.

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#19 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 06:34 PM

Does Sears call out ATF for this? Guess I need to see what Jacobsen calls out for fluid!



#20 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 06:37 PM

I called the New Holland Dealer in Orillia Ontario Can.

today.

There are filters in stock in Toronto Ontario Can.

$43.00 CDN.


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#21 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 07:37 PM

Does Sears call out ATF for this? Guess I need to see what Jacobsen calls out for fluid!

I researched this quite a bit.  Recommendations are all over the place from 40 weight motor oil to type F ATF to Mercon to Dexron.  The Sears manual says Type A hydraulic fluid.  A hydro knowledgeable guy in BITOG (bobistheoilguy dot com) recommended either just getting cheap generic tractor hydraulic fluid or Dexron saying that if a hydro was originally equipped with a low viscosity oil like Type A hydraulic fluid, it would not be advisable to go heavier.

 

My memory is shot and it was 4 months ago; I'm trying to remember...??  Could that have been IamSherwood in BITOG?  Earlyheimers; it's possible.  

 

I further agreed with that believing reports that parasitic losses in this hydro are already high enough; heavier fluid would probably increase same while increasing running temp.  I'm speculating there.

 

When I brought the tractor home, it appeared to me to have Dexron in it (color, smell, apparent viscosity, etc).  This influenced me somewhat.  When I first I changed the fluid out to Dexron 6, that seemed to work well at least for the first 2 hours.  I have more Dex 6 on hand and that was my plan.  

 

Everywhere I've seen plain old hydraulic fluid and tractors, it's usually leaking like mad.

 

With this particular hydro, I found that the cooling fins were caked full of decades old dirt and sludge probably worsened by seepage.  Contributing to this, I found that the dipstick/vent tube was totally clogged.  So anytime the thing warmed up, it was making unwanted pressure inside.  The vent is no longer clogged and I've dug out all the fins so it can properly cool itself again.  

 

Some of the reasons I used Dex 6:  1.)  It was recommended to me (as one of two options) by someone who is known in BITOG as their go-to guy for hydros.  2.)  It is full synth and is probably less likely to break down than hydraulic fluid??  3.)  Like all auto oils and trans fluids, it has a chem package intended to prolong seals and gasket life ~ and at least somewhat attenuate leaks.  Whereas, I wonder if hydraulic fluid has any of that at all - as badly as it usually leaks (in my observation).      

 

However, I would appreciate input from IamSherwood on this.  What fluid he prefers would be appreciated and certainly of importance to me.

 

I used a thin coating of "The Right Stuff" gasket sealer on the carefully cleaned existing gasket and torqued the bolts to 100 inch pounds.  It was a fishing expedition balancing the filter on the spring and trying to find that chamfer in the housing.  It wasn't where it would appear since the spring's upper and lower surfaces were nowhere near parallel. 

 

Man, but that filter goes tipping and rocking all over the place when trying to get the pan bolts started and pulled up.  Very squirrelly.  Sure hope the filter didn't tip over; but then, the spring pressure would have suddenly stopped.  I guess I'll find out tomorrow when I refill it - or however long I let the sealer dry. 

 

The Jacobsen manual doesn't specify torque.  Long 1/4" gr 5 fasteners can go from 100 to 130 but I stayed with 100 not wanting to warp the albeit thick pan/plate. 

 

Opinions on that torque?

 

Thanks!

 

mm 


Edited by MountainMichael, December 05, 2014 - 08:12 PM.

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#22 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 07:43 PM

I called the New Holland Dealer in Orillia Ontario Can.

today.

There are filters in stock in Toronto Ontario Can.

$43.00 CDN.

Excellent!

 

Whenever anyone comes up with a source with filters in stock, I would appreciate it if you would post it here to help out our fellow GT-er's. 

 

Thank you!


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#23 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 08:18 PM

MM, I always just use what the manual calls for, which

is Type "A" ATF.

Dexron 3  covers that. ( I think it's 3)


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#24 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 08:21 PM

MM, I always just use what the manual calls for, which

is Type "A" ATF.

Dexron 3  covers that. ( I think it's 3)

Thank you for the info. 

 

Current Dexron where I'm located is Dexron 6; can't seem to find 3 here anymore.  Anyway, as is the case with all Dexron, it is backward compatible all the way to the beginning of the Dexron trans fluids. 


Edited by MountainMichael, December 05, 2014 - 08:25 PM.

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#25 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 08:27 PM

I was recently told by a parts guy that not all dextron is interchangeable. I think it was 4 that he said was wrong for interchange.

Don't trust my faulty memory, do your homework and such...


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#26 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 08:48 PM

I am troubled by the installation.  Over the decades, I've learned to listen when my mechanic's sense is setting off alarm bells. 

 

I don't know if maybe just this particular New Holland filter has an unfinished or malformed top cap and neck... but it was tilting all over the place during installation.  Could the filter have tipped over while drawing up the pan?  I have no confidence in the installation.   

 

I'm not sure if it is due to the Sears hydro or what, but I do not believe this particular filter is fitting properly.  I'm considering pulling the pan and either modifying the NH filter neck or installing the used filter back in there.

 

If the filter is not seated to the tapered area, can anyone give an opinion of how long a hydro can run on stands with no load  with no fluid drawing before damage will occur?  My point is, the trans was recently run and should be well lubed... if it fails to immediately draw fluid on startup, I could stop and revise.  Of course, that'll waste another 3 quarts of expensive fluid.

 

I dislike the fit of this particular filter to this tractor.   

 

edit:  Ok, I'm headed back out to the garage before the sealer dries.  I'm gonna take down the pan and come up with plan B.  Might not be pretty but it'll work.. eventually.


Edited by MountainMichael, December 05, 2014 - 09:15 PM.

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#27 Cat385B ONLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 10:52 PM

Can you pull the top caps off and swap them? Is it tacked or dimple sealed?


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#28 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 11:31 PM

Thank you for your input. 

 

It appears the manufacturing assembly of this filter may go something like this:  The rolled inner perforated sheet metal is possibly resistance spot welded to the cap in a tubular shape.  Then the filter media is slipped over that tube and glued to the cap.  Next, the outer perforated sheet metal tube is slipped into the flange of the cap - unknown if it is welded - probably just the glue between the media and the cap.  Next, the base is glued to the bottom of the filter media.  Unknown if it is welded to the perforated outer sheet metal or not; it appears not. 

 

It is my take that the filter cannot be disassembled without destruction. 

 

I dropped the pan and scraped off the sealer so I won't have to deal with gummed up half cured "The Right Stuff" tomorrow which by then would assuredly have been "The Wrong Stuff"  :rolling: .

 

Possibly interesting note:  I decided the gasket was too hardened so I took a pull at it.  It popped right off the hydro housing in 1 piece.  

 

I believe the solution is this:  If the neck looks like the pics I posted of the new - New Holland filter and IF the filter does not seat flat up in the hydro housing - in other words, if the filter tilts and rocks all over the place, then my recommendation is to return it for refund if that is possible.

 

But if the old filter falls apart as some are reported as doing during disassembly of the pan, the tractor owner may be in a pickle at that point.  

 

edit:  I took the pan down slowly this last time.  I was able to see that the filter was reasonably level.  However, I can see no reason it would necessarily stay that way since it tilts about so easily.  One good bump or slosh of the fluid and...


Edited by MountainMichael, December 05, 2014 - 11:48 PM.

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#29 Sawdust OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 11:49 PM

Now I'm confused. I went down & checked to see how my filter fits & it is doing the same thing you said yours was. The neck on the filter is 1 1/8 at the end but is tapered larger as it gets close to the filter. The hole in the top of the resovore is also 1 1/8 but not tapered to fit the neck of the filter. It actually just sits in there slightly. My pan has an indentation to keep the spring from wondering. Honestly not paying attention to this until you mentioned yours I don't see how it stays in there. I have had this apart before to remedy another problem but have had no problems with the filter....wondering now.
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#30 MountainMichael OFFLINE  

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Posted December 05, 2014 - 11:51 PM

Thank you for the excellent input.  In that case, I may be overthinking it.  It is possible it is fine as I first installed it earlier tonight. 

 

If you look at my old filter, you can see that the neck is considerably narrower; much shorter and the wall is almost vertical whereas the new filter is longer, wider and has a lot more taper in the neck. 

 

My tractor's housing has a taper shape where the filter neck enters somewhat similar to the top of the new filter - but it is much shallower and a very different angle.  Actually, looking back in the thread, it looks exactly like the excellent pic you posted of your tractor's hydro housing.  

 

The old filter was seating flat against the hydro housing.  It did not rock at all.  It was seated on the flat portion of the top cap of the filter - it was not seated on the neck at all.  The neck was just a rough centering device used during assembly and to keep the thing from drifting off center with the old filter. 

 

I believe the old filter needed some kind of O-ring seal although none was present in my tractor at disassembly today.   


Edited by MountainMichael, December 06, 2014 - 12:04 AM.

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