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Need Advice On Delco-Remy Starter/generator


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#1 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 06:56 AM

Hi again lol

 

OK I picked up a very nice original Garage kept Cub Cadet 129 a couple months ago and I've been getting parts together to get the engine rebuilt.It had a a pretty bad Rod knock.I had it bored and installed a .010 over new piston,ring set,STD connecting rod and bought a NOS K301 crank,gasket kit,carb kit,voltage regulator,NOS PTO clutch basket and new PTO clutch disk.

 

I got a bit of money into this one but it's in very very good original condition.

 

 

I recently got the starter generator back from the shop,had them put new studs in it because I didn't feel like soldering and I got a pretty good deal.

 

Any how I got it all together last weekend and and the engine has a bit more compression than the Starter can handle without putting 24 volt to it.Compression release seems to be working "OK" I did a valve job on it and set the clearances and rechecked everything a couple of times.It has new battery cables,solenoid and switch.

 

I am Thinking that the starter generator is some how Weak.It has new brushes,studs and bearings and it runs fine with the Belt off and puts out good power but it doesn't have enough snort to turn the engine over.

 

This is a replacement Starter Generator that the PO had bought and put on.It turned over rather slow Before I rebuilt the engine.It will turn the engine over if I remove the Spark plug but it's not turning very fast even then.

 

Is there a way to test the starter circuit with an Ohm/volt meter?

 

I'm pretty much out of money at this time or I would have new field coils put in and have it tested.

 

 

I'm using a good 620 CCA Optima battery that I found fits the Cub perfectly. 

 

It's been bugging the heck out of me the past couple of days.


Edited by EricFromPa, October 14, 2014 - 06:59 AM.

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#2 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 07:04 AM

Every Delco-Remy manual I get has alot of Info in them but None give any specific numbers on how many OHMs and or volts it should draw.

 

I can get you the numbers off of the starter later this evening.It is down at the farm in the garage till I get it figured out.


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#3 olcowhand OFFLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 08:24 AM

When you did the valve job and set the clearances, did you visually see the exhaust valve "bump up" just before TDC?


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#4 boyscout862 ONLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 09:55 AM

When you did the valve job and set the clearances, did you visually see the exhaust valve "bump up" just before TDC?

You should be able to see that by removing the muffler and pipes. I would pull the spark plug and see how fast it turns too. I seem to recall something about the SGs having two options; 2 fields, and 4 fields. The 4 fields had more power for bigger engines. Let us know how you do. Good Luck, Rick


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#5 Bruce Dorsi ONLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 10:21 AM

Check that all battery connections (both ends of the positive & negative cables) are clean, shiny, and bright.  .....Corrosion or paint will inhibit current flow. 

 

Using a DC voltage meter measure the battery voltage at the battery terminals with the key off.  .....You should see in excess of 12 volts.  .....Now, activate the starter and read the battery voltage at the battery.  ....What does it read?

 

Leave the meter's negative lead connected to the negative post of the battery.  .....Relocate the positive lead of the meter to the large (armature) terminal of the starter.  ....With the starter activated, what does that voltage read?  ....Is it the same as the reading in the previous test? (It should be!)

 

For another test, use jumper cables to connect the battery negative terminal to the starter housing.  ....Any improvement in the cranking?   .....If there is, the ground circuit has a lot of resistance due to paint or rust, or undersize cables.

 

Connect the other jumper cable from the battery positive terminal to the large terminal (armature terminal) of the starter.  ....Caution disclaimer:  the starter will activate, so make sure tractor is in neutral.  .....Does the engine crank faster?  ....If it does, there is resistance in the positive circuit due to paint or rust, undersize cables, or a bad solenoid.

 

Since you said the starter will spin the engine with the plug out, we must assume that the engine is not "too tight" after the rebuild.  .....However, ignition timing and lack of compression release could be the problem, as well as a weak starter.

 

I have seen Delco-Remy starter/generators that would be too weak to start an engine, but in the majority of cases, the wiring, connections, or solenoids were the culprit.

 

 


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#6 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 12:44 PM

When you did the valve job and set the clearances, did you visually see the exhaust valve "bump up" just before TDC?

 

 

I cranked it over by hand till I got TDC on the flywheel and set the valves.and installed the points and set those.The exhaust valve was around .026 after I lapped them.I set them to .017 exhaust and .008 intake then cranked it around by hand and I could feel the compression release working Some.

 

I've heard of the arm on the ACR getting slightly bent inward and not lifting the valve enough.I'll take the cam cover back off and take a peek at it.Hate to go any tighter on the exhaust valve clearance but I can safely go to as tight as .014 without burning a valve according to Kohler.

 

 

All the wires and everything are new.I even ran an auxiliary ground from the generator mount to the frame.I tried jumping it off of the bolt straight to the battery and it still does the same thing.Cranks pretty slow with the plug out and won't crank at all with the plug installed.I tried jumping it off of my uncles Ford diesel truck and it turned over fine.Didn't crank it very long for fear of burning up the starter running 24 volts through it.

 

 

I haven't put Fuel into the tank yet.Figured I would once I get everything else working.And got to crank it over a bit.It has assembly lube on everything but I don't want to Dry fire it without getting Oil to everything.

 

 

I have 2 other good Cams sitting here that I could put in it if need be.1 out of a K321 and M16.

 

 

The engine will crank over by hand with the plug installed.The starter SHOULD be able to turn it over if I can turn it over with 1 hand on the pulley.Battery is new and fully charged.


Edited by EricFromPa, October 14, 2014 - 12:49 PM.


#7 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 01:01 PM

There's Field coil sets on Ebay for around $40 but I don't have a Torque driver set anymore.It walked off a few years ago when my shed got broken into.

 

 

I'm going to try another starter on it.Gona ask my uncle if he'll let me borrow 1 of his starters off of 1 of his Cub Cadets.Sure he'll grumble about it but then let me borrow 1. :rolling:

 

The starter on my 129 looks darn near New but it had the 1 post chewed up from the PO jump starting it.


Edited by EricFromPa, October 14, 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#8 Alc OFFLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 06:16 PM

Just curious on how you hooked up the  truck to the tractor to get 24 volts?  Positive  jumper from  the truck , to the negative post of the tractor battery ,  battery negative  cable unhooked from the tractor battery clamped to the negative jumper going back to the trucks negative post ?  Or some  arrangement  ?


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#9 farmerall OFFLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 07:20 PM

I'd check the ACR. I had two Kohler engines do the same thing you are describing. Both where 12 hp engines in a 128 and 129. They weren't rebuilt but one started fine then suddenly was near impossible to start with the starter generator. I also tried multiple starters on each engine.


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#10 GTTinkerer OFFLINE  

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Posted October 14, 2014 - 08:04 PM

Just curious on how you hooked up the  truck to the tractor to get 24 volts?  Positive  jumper from  the truck , to the negative post of the tractor battery ,  battery negative  cable unhooked from the tractor battery clamped to the negative jumper going back to the trucks negative post ?  Or some  arrangement  ?

The starters in the Ford diesels are still 12 volt starters.  Two batteries increase the amps to the starter not the volts to the starter.


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#11 crittersf1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 15, 2014 - 08:05 AM

Spins fine with jumper cables? Sounds like a weak battery.



#12 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted October 15, 2014 - 08:20 AM

Just curious on how you hooked up the  truck to the tractor to get 24 volts?  Positive  jumper from  the truck , to the negative post of the tractor battery ,  battery negative  cable unhooked from the tractor battery clamped to the negative jumper going back to the trucks negative post ?  Or some  arrangement  ?

 

2 12v batteries in the 7.3l diesel Thought it was 24v but I guess not.Had to look that one up.It's my uncles truck.It cranked over when I jumped it but it was still alot slower than it should be.

 

There SHOULD be some way to test the OHMS on the starter circuit but I can't find any base numbers to go by.I might have to pull the engine back out and  apart and swap out the Cam.I inspected the cam when I had it out to have the cylinder bored and it looked good but we'll see.

 

Can't use the M16 cam it has no points lobe.I did find 2 more cams in the shed though.So I have 3 cams to choose from once I get it apart.Those darn Cam spacers are a pain in the butt to get on btw.Cam endplay has to be .005-.010.

 

 

 

I may have a weak starter AND a bad ACR. :wallbanging:


Edited by EricFromPa, October 15, 2014 - 08:22 AM.


#13 Alc OFFLINE  

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Posted October 15, 2014 - 10:37 AM

I was also looking for some  kind of spec for the amp draw right now I have two Pks with 12 hp Kohlers that use s/g  so I'm sure at some point will be having problems too . Did you happen to check the voltage from the s/g case to positive while you were cranking ?



#14 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted October 16, 2014 - 08:13 PM

UPDATE  UPDATE!!!

Just got back in from down at the farm.

 

I got to lookin and took the engine out again and took the Cam cover off What do I see? ACR is Bent in against the crank.I straighten it and tried to crank it over and it Cranked over GREAT!!

 

Instead of trusting the ACR to stay working I took it back apart and swapped out the Cam.Pulled the lifters out and found that the Exhaust lifter had a dent in the bottom flat part on the edge.

 

I'm thinking the ACR may have caught in the small dent and bent?

 

I did find a crack in the ACR arm from bending it back so it's a good thing I decided to change it out.I'm pretty sure this engine was rebuilt once before.The old Crank was undersized and scored up bad enough to where I felt it needed replaced.

 

I must of been in a hurry when I put it together the 1st time and missed the bent ACR and that small indent in the lifter.

 

I got it all back together and reset the valve clearances and it looks like I'm good to go.It cranks over good,starter pulls it over strong and smooth.Man I hate trying to get those darn Cam shims back in.

 

 

Hey thanks again Guys.

 

I'll try to take some video of it once I get a some more Oil and a new spark plug.I spilled about 1/2 quart when my long neck funnel decided to jump out of the dipstick tube :wallbanging: .

 

 

Hey it happens lol


Edited by EricFromPa, October 16, 2014 - 08:15 PM.

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#15 Alc OFFLINE  

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Posted October 17, 2014 - 05:32 AM

Glad to hear you found the problem :thumbs:   I've never messed with the compression releases on any small engine but will have to keep it in mind when troubleshooting cranking issues like you had .


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