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Accidentally Started Another Restoration


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#1 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted October 06, 2014 - 06:13 PM

With winter fast approaching, I have been telling myself "No more painting.  I need to switch to doing work inside the house, like engine repairs."  Then I dragged home a Simpson's Supremacy. I have been looking for one for quite a while, so when this one popped up, I jumped on it.  Paid way more than I have for other walk behinds in similar condition ($60), but (sing alone if you know the words) I didn't have one. Sorry, no before photos.  

 

This tractor came without an ID tag, but with the wrong engine (an ACN built in January 1959), so dating it is difficult.  What I know is that it has the 4-stud engine carrier (SN 600 to 4171) and the B127-301 gear case (SN 1244 and up).  That should put it somewhere between SN 1244 and 4171.

 

It had sat outside in the rain with the crank case breather cap missing, so I knew the crankcase would be full of water.  I pulled the engine to remove the water & get it running again.  I drained the chocolate milk & removed the base to remove the sludge.  Then I cleaned & set the points.  Then it was the carb & sediment bowl. Finally, I replaced the spark plug.  It runs fine, but that isn't the problem.

 

The problem is that once I had the engine off, I noticed there was a lot of axle play in the housings.  The wheels needed to come off anyway because they were leaking Calcium Chloride all over the floor.  So, with that much removed, it just seems logical to remove the gear case cover and pull the axle to see just how bad things really are.  The axle bushings are shot, so dirt got between the bushings & the axle and wore grooves into the axle and elongated the hole in the gear case cover.  Once the axle started to flop around, the oil seal soon failed and its metal housing wore another groove in the axle. The misaligned axle burred the edges of the final drive gear.  A file took care of them.

 

All that means that I need to get an axle made, have the cover hole over-sized & bushed, and install a new oil seal & a couple of bushings.  Seeing as it is all in pieces, I might as well paint it.  I need to paint the rims before the tires go back on anyway.  From water in the engine to a complete restoration.  

 

DSCF8163.JPG DSCF8165.JPG DSCF8167.JPG DSCF8170.JPG DSCF8172.JPG DSCF8173.JPG DSCF8175.JPG DSCF8177.JPG DSCF8181.JPG


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#2 LilysDad ONLINE  

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Posted October 06, 2014 - 07:05 PM

And the PO never wondered what all that squealing was about?


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#3 superaben OFFLINE  

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Posted October 06, 2014 - 07:06 PM

One thing I really enjoy about you, Mark, is your commitment to walk behinds.  There really aren't as many walk behind fans as there are real "tractor" style four wheel tractor fans, even though there are thousands of walk behind brands to chase down.  I am a sucker for them, too.

 

Ben W.


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#4 Mike Unwin OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 08:40 AM

Mark, maybe you should invest in a lathe next I bought an old 1941 Logan belt drive and it has proven handy for little odd ball jobs.My buddy is trying to talk me into a milling machine next but I told him anybody can buy one but myself I would not know how to run it. Maybe Youtube :smilewink:


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#5 Cat385B ONLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 11:00 AM

That sounds like how I ended up with two kids.


Next time wear gloves.
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#6 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 02:30 PM

Bloody H E double hockey sticks!!!!!  Just got back from the machine shop.  Talk about sticker shock.  Maybe I will buy a lathe & milling machine!

 

So, I am thinking about doing this restoration thread from a perspective we just don't talk about on this forum often enough, and I think that leads to the stupid prices we see on Kijiji & Craigs List.  Unless a Moderator tells me otherwise, this thread will address the cost of a restoration so all those folks who "know what they have" or "have a friend who says it is worth thousands" or have seen Rick Dale pay 35 times the market price for a DB finally get the message: these things are cheap to buy because they are expensive to fix!

 

Just to get the engine running, bearing in mind it is not the original engine and I am going just for "running", not Factory Floor Condition, I have spent:

 

   To remove engine:                                                                                    0.5 hrs 

   To drain oil, remove base, clean sump, inspect internals                          1.0 hr 

   To make new base gasket, re-install base, and add oil:                            1.0 hr

   To remove mag cover, file points, set gap, re-install cover.                      1.0 hr

   To test spark & replace plug:                                                                     0.5 hr

   To remove and clean carb and sediment bowl.  To blow out fuel line:       1.5 hrs

   To adjust carb for proper running:                                                             1.0 hr

                                                                                                                                 6.5 hrs

 

   1 litre of 10w 30 oil:                                                                                  $6.00

   1 can WD40 to free the stuck exhaust valve:                                           $6.00

   1 sheet of gasket paper for new base gasket:                                          $1.00 

   1 can carb cleaner:                                                                                   $7.00

   1 spark plug:                                                                                              $5.00

                                                                                                                                $25.00

 

 

For the gear case and axle:

   To remove wheels and ratchet hubs:                                                        1.0 hr

   To remove gear case cover, remove, clean and inspect internals:            1.0 hr

   To remove axle housing bushings and oil seal:                                         1.0 hr

   To drive to and from machine shop & discuss repair options:                   1.0 hr

   To drive to store & purchase repair items:                                                1.0 hr

                                                                                                                                5.0 hrs

 

 

   Axle bushings (3 @ 6.00):                                                                       $18.00

   Tire tubes (2 @ $18.00):                                                                         $36.00

   1 can engine degreaser:                                                                         $  4.00

   1 pkg 3/8" drive zerk fittings:                                                                   $  5.00

   1 can primer:                                                                                           $  8.00

   1 new axle:                                                                                            $240.00

    Repairs to gear case cover:                                                                 $100.00   

                                                                                                                                 $411.00

 

 

Total spent so far (not including tractor): $436.00 & 11.5 hrs.

 

Note: sorry for the mis-aligned columns but they were aligned when I hit "add reply". 


Edited by New.Canadian.DB.Owner, October 07, 2014 - 02:32 PM.

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#7 LilysDad ONLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 04:14 PM

Bloody H E double hockey sticks!!!!!  Just got back from the machine shop.  Talk about sticker shock.  Maybe I will buy a lathe & milling machine!

 

So, I am thinking about doing this restoration thread from a perspective we just don't talk about on this forum often enough, and I think that leads to the stupid prices we see on Kijiji & Craigs List.  Unless a Moderator tells me otherwise, this thread will address the cost of a restoration so all those folks who "know what they have" or "have a friend who says it is worth thousands" or have seen Rick Dale pay 35 times the market price for a DB finally get the message: these things are cheap to buy because they are expensive to fix!

 

Just to get the engine running, bearing in mind it is not the original engine and I am going just for "running", not Factory Floor Condition, I have spent:

 

   To remove engine:                                                                                    0.5 hrs 

   To drain oil, remove base, clean sump, inspect internals                          1.0 hr 

   To make new base gasket, re-install base, and add oil:                            1.0 hr

   To remove mag cover, file points, set gap, re-install cover.                      1.0 hr

   To test spark & replace plug:                                                                     0.5 hr

   To remove and clean carb and sediment bowl.  To blow out fuel line:       1.5 hrs

   To adjust carb for proper running:                                                             1.0 hr

                                                                                                                                 6.5 hrs

 

   1 litre of 10w 30 oil:                                                                                  $6.00

   1 can WD40 to free the stuck exhaust valve:                                           $6.00

   1 sheet of gasket paper for new base gasket:                                          $1.00 

   1 can carb cleaner:                                                                                   $7.00

   1 spark plug:                                                                                              $5.00

                                                                                                                                $25.00

 

 

For the gear case and axle:

   To remove wheels and ratchet hubs:                                                        1.0 hr

   To remove gear case cover, remove, clean and inspect internals:            1.0 hr

   To remove axle housing bushings and oil seal:                                         1.0 hr

   To drive to and from machine shop & discuss repair options:                   1.0 hr

   To drive to store & purchase repair items:                                                1.0 hr

                                                                                                                                5.0 hrs

 

 

   Axle bushings (3 @ 6.00):                                                                       $18.00

   Tire tubes (2 @ $18.00):                                                                         $36.00

   1 can engine degreaser:                                                                         $  4.00

   1 pkg 3/8" drive zerk fittings:                                                                   $  5.00

   1 can primer:                                                                                           $  8.00

   1 new axle:                                                                                            $240.00

    Repairs to gear case cover:                                                                 $100.00   

                                                                                                                                 $411.00

 

 

Total spent so far (not including tractor): $436.00 & 11.5 hrs.

 

Note: sorry for the mis-aligned columns but they were aligned when I hit "add reply". 

Adding this up; did you pay for the axle? Is that part of the 411.00? Your right it wouldn't take too many axles to buy an old lathe! In the mean time, is there anyone in our boy's club(and girls) who could do this job? I know what machinists cost. I had one quote me 1hr. @ $100 to mill the head on a Kohler K. It might take 15 min to mill it, but there is a lot of set up time.



#8 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 04:25 PM

Usually keeping track of how much you put into a restoration is not recommended if you are faint of heart :D

Will be keeping up with this thread to see how things turn out, your right that people have no idea how much goes into a proper restoration. Most of the time you end up having more in than what it is worth but you probably already know that.



#9 Lauber1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 05:56 PM

well as  I see it , you cant figure your own labor as worth anything in a hobby, so it just the total of the parts you used. Depending on the size and whether the unit has sheet metal or a ton of small parts, I usually can redo one in 50hrs. Last WH walker I did was about 16hrs on the tractor and 34hrs on the sickle mower. mowers have lots of small parts to blast and paint. Not really understanding the money spent on the axil, but maybe there's something here im not seeing. We should talk sometime about your lack of machine tools access.  I'm interested in some history on this tractor if you have some.

 

 

done pond 005.JPG



#10 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 06:53 PM

Adding this up; did you pay for the axle? Is that part of the 411.00? Your right it wouldn't take too many axles to buy an old lathe! In the mean time, is there anyone in our boy's club(and girls) who could do this job? I know what machinists cost. I had one quote me 1hr. @ $100 to mill the head on a Kohler K. It might take 15 min to mill it, but there is a lot of set up time.

 

Axle was $240.

 

 

well as  I see it , you cant figure your own labor as worth anything in a hobby, so it just the total of the parts you used. Depending on the size and whether the unit has sheet metal or a ton of small parts, I usually can redo one in 50hrs. Last WH walker I did was about 16hrs on the tractor and 34hrs on the sickle mower. mowers have lots of small parts to blast and paint. Not really understanding the money spent on the axil, but maybe there's something here im not seeing. We should talk sometime about your lack of machine tools access.  I'm interested in some history on this tractor if you have some.

 

 

attachicon.gifdone pond 005.JPG

I am tracking the hours so folks know it isn't a weekend project.  As for the history in a nut shell:  Waterloo Mfg. Co. Ltd built them for Simpson's Department Stores here in Canada.  From what I can tell so far, they are just a cheaper, mass produced version of the better built tractors Waterloo sold under its own brand.  Visually, the major difference is the use of flat bar handles, where as Waterloo used round tubing.  A more subtle difference is that Simpson's sold a version that had a 3hp Briggs.

 

If anyone near here has access to a lathe & milling machine, I have other items that will need work eventually.


Edited by New.Canadian.DB.Owner, October 07, 2014 - 08:11 PM.


#11 WHdbJD ONLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 07:07 PM

Usually keeping track of how much you put into a restoration is not recommended if you are faint of heart :D

Will be keeping up with this thread to see how things turn out, your right that people have no idea how much goes into a proper restoration. Most of the time you end up having more in than what it is worth but you probably already know that.

 

I keep an envelope for receipts for each unit as I am working on it....but have never opened the

envelope and totaled the cost....I'm scared that would take the fun out of it and I wouldn't want to

do another!

 

When I go to my reward, I'll let my heirs open them envelopes....then they can post some

ridiculous ads on craigs list!!


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#12 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 07:35 PM

Tonight I installed the axle bushings and started to work on the clutch idler pulley assembly.  The assembly had a lot of end play and growled when spun.  

 

Part of the problem was that the washers were installed in the wrong order so the large washer has a groove worn into it.  

 

Another part of the problem was that the roller bearings had failed: some of the needles had come out of the housing.  You can see some pitting and grooving on the inner races. 

 

The third, albeit minor, problem is that the Zerk fitting has been replaced before.  It is now a 3/8" driven Zerk instead of a 5/16" driven.  I have to decide whether to install a bushing & bring it back to spec or go with "functional".  It will likely be the latter.

 

While I have it in pieces, it will get painted.  It is far harder to wire wheel, sandblast & paint once the roller bearings are re-installed.

 

Labour:

   To install axle bushings (special tools required):                           0.25 hrs

   To remove, disassemble and inspect idler pulley assembly:          0.25 hrs

   To degrease pulley and remove roller bearing housings:               0.25 hrs

   To wire wheel and sandblast pulley & hardware,

        coat with Rust Off! and hang dry overnight:                              0.25 hrs

   To research replacement items for oil seal, bearing & inner race: 1.50 hrs

 

                                                                                                                         2.5 hrs

 

Parts:

   1/2 litre of gas for degreasing:                                                      $1.00

   Oil seal:                                                                                      $10.00 

   Roller bearings and inner races:                                                 $33.00

                                                                                                                         $44.00   

 

Totals: $480 and 14 hours.

 

DSCF8199.JPG

 

DSCF8196.JPG DSCF8197.JPG DSCF8202.JPG DSCF8203.JPG DSCF8208.JPG DSCF8218.JPG DSCF8224.JPG DSCF8209.JPG DSCF8217.JPG DSCF8219.JPG DSCF8221.JPG DSCF8222.JPG DSCF8227.JPG


Edited by New.Canadian.DB.Owner, October 07, 2014 - 08:00 PM.

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#13 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 08:09 PM

Okay, so here are my choices for an oil seal.  Bearing in mind that there is a bushing outboard of the oil seal, and that I have 0.4" of depth to play with, would you go with:

 

a 3/8" single lip oil seal crw1 3.jpg or

 

 

a 1/4" oil seal with a dust skirt? crwa1 3.jpg  (same price)


Edited by New.Canadian.DB.Owner, October 07, 2014 - 08:10 PM.


#14 Lauber1 OFFLINE  

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Posted October 07, 2014 - 09:06 PM

I remember some guy doing a DB would use a pair of seal on each side. you almost have room for them.


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#15 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted October 09, 2014 - 07:35 PM

I had a couple of hours tonight after tilling the gardens in preparation for the "poor growing season", so I tackled the ratchet hubs.  When I bought the tractor, I heard them clicking, so I thought they worked.  When I removed the wheels to get the tires taken off the rims, I discovered three problems.

 

Problem #1: one of the set collar locking bolts was broken off.  I used the old "make it into a screw" trick & it came out with only a little persuasion.  

 

Problem #2: each hub only had one functioning racket spring.  I took a suggestion from Trowel and used some scrap throttle cable to make new springs.  

 

Problem #3: one of the hubs was missing a lug bolt.  My concern here was that one of the holes may have been stripped.  It was not.  All was fine, but if I had not cleaned up the hubs, I would never have known for sure until I stuck a lug bolt in it to remount the wheels.  Then I would have to remove the wheel, again, to install a heli-coil.  Far simpler to do it now.

 

So, if everything was a minor fix, why did I waste 2 hours cleaning & fixing the ratchet hubs?  Take a look at the last photo & you can see what I found under the old grease.  Better to know now & be able to look for spares before it fails.

 

Labour: 

   To clean & repair ratchet hubs:  2 hrs.

 

Totals: $480 and 16 hours.

 

 

DSCF8228.JPG DSCF8237.JPG DSCF8238.JPG DSCF8244.JPG

 

DSCF8234.JPG DSCF8236.JPG DSCF8239.JPG

 

DSCF8229.JPG DSCF8232.JPG

 

DSCF8241.JPG


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