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Hydraulic System For Allis B-10


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#1 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 05:07 AM

Morning,

How is everyone, having a good spring, see threads on gardening and mowing, after a very bitter cold and long winter it makes my heart happy to see these threads.

 

Have been under high stress for past two months, hoping things calm down a bit so i can return.

 

Have several questions to ask those who has been down this road before and those who know and understand hydraulics better then me.

 

I am thinking of adding a hydraulic system to my little Allis B-10, i see and know about the OEM system for the Landlord series but im thinking of going a bit bigger with the hydro pump to spin hydro motors on stationary units.

 

As an example to start off, my chipper/shredder is currently powered by a aluminum 190402 series Briggs 8 hp so i have a hp figure, Allis is powered by the 9 hp cast iron Briggs 23.

To operate a lift cylinder is the easy part, my biggest question is can i mount a pump big enough with enough flow and high enough pressure to spin a hydro motor with good torque that is equivalent to the 8 hp gas engine to spin the chipper/shredder ?

 

I can not find the gross torque rating for the 190402 engine so im going to guess it around 10 to 11 lb in.

 

My friend has a Toro 5100D Greensmaster he is parting out, each of the reels has it's own little hydro motor, i did some looking and could not find the flow rating of the motors but they look very heavy duty for it's size and can be had very cheaply along with lift cylinders, a small one for the Allis B-10 and the slightly longer one for the garden trailer.

 

What do you guys think ? would i be wasting my time and money to try this ?

 

 

 



#2 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 05:27 AM

Hey, to aid in this idea here is a picture of my little chipper/shredder below.

 

For a few more ideas, i can mount via a bracket the hydro motor to the back of the tractor and driveshaft off the motor to the chipper/shredder ( and other attachments) or mount the motor to the chipper shredder and quick connect the hydro lines. I can get at least 4 of the motors from the Toro reel mower so no problems there.

 

I think the motors spin at 1500 to 1800 rpm.

 

 

Edit : the Tecumseh H50 pictured below was swapped out for the Briggs 8 hp which is currently powering it.

Attached Thumbnails

  • ww_grinder_super_tomahawk.jpg

Edited by trowel, May 24, 2014 - 05:29 AM.


#3 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 05:34 AM

No hydraulics guru, but I am trying to noodle it around.
How big are the blades on the grounds master? What would an approx engine size be for that size cut if it was a stand alone unit?
Say the engine usually used on that size cutting swath is a 3.5 hp, is it possible to us two of the motors on the chipper in tandem and achieve the correct hp, or doesn't the hydraulic power add that way?
I know some of the limitations would be powering engine and pump, but assuming it has that OK, can you stack motors?
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#4 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 05:47 AM

If i remember correctly each reel is 21 '' cut wide, the blades are roughly 5 to 8 inches in diameter, there is a total of 5 reels on the mower.

 

I think two of the motors spin CCW so those are out unless i have a application that require CCW rotation, i know some motors don't care as to the direction of flow, some looking into this CCw motor is required.

 

You gave me a bead, the same single reel is used on a 21 '' cut walk behind, i think it is called the greensmaster, shall look into that.

 

Good idea on the motors, wonder if i can mount side by side turning a double V-belt pulley ?


Edited by trowel, May 24, 2014 - 05:49 AM.


#5 petrj6 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 06:13 AM

   If it is a hydraulic drive motor you should be able to change the direction of the motor by reversing the hoses, I THINK!!!!  That may depend on the motor, I know we built a big unit at work and the whole thing ran backwards because the motor's were all plumbed in backwards.  The biggest problem I can see is getting a big enough hydraulic pump hooked to the motor.

    I know there is not allot of room to mount a pump under the hood of the tractor, and you will want it as close to the motor as possible to get the best power.  Have you considered a setup like a case 155??? mount a pump directly tot he engine,  No driveshaft, just hydraulic lines to all the drive units, you would need to work out a drive motor for the rear gear box but without the clutch mechanism under the seat there should be enough room in there.

    One thing to consider is that whatever you get for a hydraulic pump you need to remember you will be driving more than one motor pump at a time, like the rear end and a mower deck when you are mowing.  so the pump will need a fairly hi flow rate.

                                                                                                                                            Pete


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#6 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 06:28 AM

   If it is a hydraulic drive motor you should be able to change the direction of the motor by reversing the hoses, I THINK!!!!  That may depend on the motor, I know we built a big unit at work and the whole thing ran backwards because the motor's were all plumbed in backwards.  The biggest problem I can see is getting a big enough hydraulic pump hooked to the motor.

    I know there is not allot of room to mount a pump under the hood of the tractor, and you will want it as close to the motor as possible to get the best power.  Have you considered a setup like a case 155??? mount a pump directly tot he engine,  No driveshaft, just hydraulic lines to all the drive units, you would need to work out a drive motor for the rear gear box but without the clutch mechanism under the seat there should be enough room in there.

    One thing to consider is that whatever you get for a hydraulic pump you need to remember you will be driving more than one motor pump at a time, like the rear end and a mower deck when you are mowing.  so the pump will need a fairly hi flow rate.

                                                                                                                                            Pete

Ah Pete, how are thing,

Not the tractor it self, it will remain the same, the hydraulic system would be to power attachments via live hydro quick connect and a lift cylinder for the garden trailer i planing on building.

 

There is a diesel repower coming with same approximate power equivalency of the Briggs 23 so im trying to work with the 9 to 10 hp range, thinking side mounted pump bracketed to the engine much like the starter generators are on the Briggs 23 driven by the flywheel or drive shaft pulley.


Edited by trowel, May 24, 2014 - 07:15 AM.


#7 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 07:28 AM

Found a manual for Toro Reelmaster containing information, motors are gear types and at 7 GPM at a little over 1000 rpm in a single hydro motor configuration, the hydro motor is developing 3000 psi, and about 554 in lbs of torque but the pilot valve limits psi at 1500.

 

That's a really high torque rating for a single motor but that is off the Toro's pump, i wonder what the figures would be with a smaller pump ? have a GPM flow rate now at 7 so this is looking good seeing as some off gear pumps are for a 8 hp engine is rated to 10 GPM.

 

The Toro has a backlapping feature so the pump is reversible so the CCW pumps can be turned CW.

I also know that many gear type motors can also be used as gear pumps.


Edited by trowel, May 24, 2014 - 07:39 AM.

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#8 boyscout862 ONLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 07:55 AM

You are better off leaving the chipper with its own engine and sparing the extra hours on the B10. Those engines are getting harder and more expensive for parts. I have 5 GTs with 23Ds in them with none running currently. Its nice to have the tractor run attachments but I'm conserving wear on them whenever I can. I use a cheap LT for mowing to spare my BIG TEN. Good Luck with whatever you decide. Rick


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#9 petrj6 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 08:08 AM

    OK so if you want to keep the tractor original and put a hydraulic accessory on it why not make something to go on the front of the machine where the snow blower would go?  Imagine a quick hitch assy like the front bumper I made for my big ten, it uses the pin holes for mounting the mower deck and snow blower, put a hyd pump on that with a lovejoy coupler on the front pto for the engine.  there is your hydraulic pump easily added and removed when you want and not in the way, then all you need to do in plumb it in.  you could use wood splitter valves for that and set them up on the side like a loader would.

allis bumper 003.JPG

allis bumper 004.JPG

    Get what I mean??  that way if you don't like it or it does not work you can take it back off.

                                                                                                                                         Pete


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#10 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 08:45 AM

You are better off leaving the chipper with its own engine and sparing the extra hours on the B10. Those engines are getting harder and more expensive for parts. I have 5 GTs with 23Ds in them with none running currently. Its nice to have the tractor run attachments but I'm conserving wear on them whenever I can. I use a cheap LT for mowing to spare my BIG TEN. Good Luck with whatever you decide. Rick

Thank Rick, that is very good advice,

I have a cheap back up Craftsmen LT only for mowing but flat tires and have not ran it yet, have been so busy i have been grabbing the Squire 9 to mow before the sun sets in the evening.

No worries, the engine is to be changed out, yeah, the model 23's are becoming very scarce, the current engine that is in the Allis right now is parts/replacement for Squire 9 which i use occasionally, mainly as a mower, a job she spent 80 % of her 50 year running life doing, the original plan was to rebuild and bore out a cast iron 12 hp parts engine i got into a 14 hp for Allis but my friend has a high speed diesel with very good parts avalibillity so going in that direction instead.

 

Pete refreshed my memory of the Allis B-10 and B-12 forklift units with the direct coupled front mounted pump, i might do that but would prefer the side mounted bracketed to the engine roughly in the same location as the current starter generator if at all possiable.

 

I figured the chipper/shredder would be a good place to start with hydro motors, chipper/shredders require a lot pf power, same with snow throwers, if the chipper/shredder venture works out then i know for a fact it will work on the front mounted snow thrower, if it fails powering the chipper/shredder then no worries because lots will be learned along the way and the tractor would be set up hydro so i can build the garden trailer with hydraulic tilt/dump cylinder, hydraulic sleeve hitch lifts and the hydro motors can be sold off or repurposed for other applications.

 

Any inputs, advices, tec data and ideas or even just a yes/no to the idea would be a great help.


Edited by trowel, May 24, 2014 - 08:55 AM.

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#11 boyscout862 ONLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 09:03 AM

I'm so desparate for some parts that I bought a few 23As and a 23B. I haven't touched them yet. Even though I'm retired, I still can't seem to get everything done. There is a Gas Engine Show and Flea Market today in Bernardston, MA. Its on RT10N(exit 28 off I-91) (413-834-0103). Its today and tomorrow. Good Luck, Rick


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#12 petrj6 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 24, 2014 - 02:16 PM

   I was thinking of making something from scratch, not using an existing nos unit, I did not know they made hyd pump's for the allis tractors like that.  If you are going to re-power it than what is the issue with just mounting some brackets to the block to hold the pump?  Or am I misunderstanding and you need advise on what pump to use?  I dint know much about hyd pumps but there are lots of sites out there with that mind of info, would a log splitter pump work? or would that not have enough flow?

   I don't really see an issue with putting a hydraulic pump on the side of the engine block like you are talking about other than it will be a major drain in the power from the engine, you may only be able to do one thing at a time with it, it may not have enough power to mow and drive at the same time.  I do know that hyd pumps require allot of power to drive but don't put out the equivalent in power, you would use lots of hp to generate torque but not get the speed to spin mower blades.  I don't think this really explains it well but it is best I can come up with.

                                            Pete


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#13 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 25, 2014 - 03:48 AM

Pete,

You explained it good, yeah, the system im thinking of is of stationary type but now that you mention the mower deck it brings about the question of the snow thrower, a lot of the power demand would be to drive a 800 to 900 lb tractor and turn a heavy snow thrower but the interesting thing is that amount of power that would be diverted for the pump is being diverted anyways to belt drive the snow thrower anyways, the next question  was how much hp ?

 

Research resulted in low pressure system with high flow rate for turning gear type motors that require 7 GPM, a gear pump from surpluscenter of 1.02 cu in for 14.4 GPM at 3200 rpm which seems to be the typical flow rating for a low pressure high flow system powered by a 8 to 10 hp gas engine to turn two 7 GPM motors at 1500 psi and taking into account efficiency loss from heat and restrictions would just about max out the pump and engine so downsizing the pump to 8 GPM 1600 psi for around 5 to 6 hp looks like it would still be a strain on the system and engine.

 

I was offered a twin cylinder diesel for Allis but would require extensive modifications to the tractor and would put a lot of strain on the drivetran, better in a much larger GT.

 

This is looking like a no-go for the hydro motors but it still leaves the door open for lift cylinders, this much i know is a wood splitter pump would do just fine for cylinders, when the cylinder is under pressure the pump kicks over to the high pressure low flow side which is great for a small engine.


Edited by trowel, May 25, 2014 - 03:52 AM.


#14 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted May 25, 2014 - 04:13 AM

I'm so desparate for some parts that I bought a few 23As and a 23B. I haven't touched them yet. Even though I'm retired, I still can't seem to get everything done. There is a Gas Engine Show and Flea Market today in Bernardston, MA. Its on RT10N(exit 28 off I-91) (413-834-0103). Its today and tomorrow. Good Luck, Rick

I can understand that Rick, things stack up and now a days is of very high demand, everything has to be done yesterday or right this second or the repercussions will push one months behind on everything else, the domino effect.

 

The As and Bs are same basic guts but there are variations between them and the Domestics, crank bearing, crank case breather, valves, ignition coil, valve retainers and the heads to name off a few, most common problem is the head, there are three kinds Briggs made for the 23 cu in engines, 4 if you include the low pressure one for kerosene and other distillates.

 

Allis currently is powered by a 1966 233431 block, some internal changes had to be made along with some external changes, it still is using the original head that i would swap out with the 23D for a little more pep if it was to remain in the tractor.

 

Stopped in to my friends place for parts and found he was going to the Bernardston engine show with the kids so i figured the heck with it and drove up there. Was very good to see everyone and rest a bit. I might head back up today to see if there are any major price drops worthy of my attention.


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#15 boyscout862 ONLINE  

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Posted May 25, 2014 - 05:46 AM

It doesn't seem to stop. Yesterday I went to a friends to get some buckets of bolts but they were the wrong size. While I was talking to him I noticed an old(60s) Gilson Brothers GT with a large cast iron B & S. It has large wheel weights that look like my Bolens weights but they have "MTD" cast into them.

 

He gave it to me and told me that he had already scrapped 50 gts. He then showed me 20 more hidden in the brush. I'm going to help him with a couple of his projects, he is in his 70s and having health problems. I am going to make a motor mount for his cement mixer and help him mount it on his trailer, He wants to clean the yard so I may end up with a few more GTs but I will have to do a bunch of brush cutting to even get to them. The thrill of the hunt has me excited because there is a tube frame Bolens and a hood (that is all I can see) of what appears to be a Sears FF GT. I can't get close to them.

 

Now I have more projects and more tractors. I'm trying to cut back on both. Good Luck, Rick


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