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Broken Fins On Case 444 Kohler Engine


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41 replies to this topic

#16 Texas Deere and Horse OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 10:55 PM

Chris, Cast iron is hard to Electric weld, but can be done with the right rod and pre-heating and post heating. If it were mine, I'd Flame weld it or Braze it as most are used to hearing. Cast iron does well with brazing and will be as strong as the original casting if done correctly. Either way you go, it will need to be completely torn down to bare block to be repaired..

 

If it were ,mine, I'd fix it by flame welding. But your best bet would be to replace the block. I think you can replace the block cheaper then repair it. Several of our Site Sponsors have used parts and I'm sure one of them can help you out.



#17 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 11:19 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. So glad all this happened and I have about 10 minutes of seat time on it...I'll keep you posted. Not quite sure what I'll do yet.

#18 nbent OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 11:24 PM

if you are going to do a restoration on it some time i would just braze the gap between the pipe an the block and start looking for a new block, or a whole complete engine but thats my 2 cents 



#19 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 11:25 PM

While you are looking for a block (and cursing the SOB who fibbed to you), I would do some research and a little looking for a decent brazer in the neighborhood.

If you decide to try to chemically repair versus weld or braze, I would try this route. (Assuming the pipe is secure and you do not feel that the pipe could work loose or cause further damage.
-Clean it up as best you can, then clean it more.
-Tip on its side so any putty you put in, stays in.
-Find something that will just fit in the hole. This only has to stop epoxy from oozing in. I am envisioning steel wool or something. (I am kidding when I say paper or chewing gum, but it should be small and not create a big pocket when it deteriorates) you may even be able to use the next step if its firm enough.
-Coat as per directions with a thermosteel like product ( http://www.aremco.co...p-metal-sealer/ )
-After a complete curing, I would probably create a reinforcement area of a good epoxy (JB, quik steel, etc. see if one has a temperature rating that is better.). I would be liberal in its size and apply for maximum adhesion with little regard for aesthetics as this may well be your last chance to try to save the engine.
-I would also consider top layering in some coarse stainless steel screening in it to improve structure, but only if it will not create a weak spot or promote delamination.

Some may worry about heat dissipation, especially near the exhaust port. I am thinking that with as much crap as we find in the fins on most engines, this is an acceptable risk versus no set time and a probably junk block anyways.
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#20 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 05:34 AM

Thanks gents. What are the chances that pipe in the exhaust has enough turns left in it to close that gap? I'm nervous to try turning it for fear of making it worse. However something tells me when the last owner broke it he had heat treated it and hammered the crap out of it when it broke off.

#21 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 05:37 AM

I  have my uncles old pipe threading dies and tri-pod and I think they are adjustable , I wonder if you got the pipe treaded just a little more it would stick into the block enough to seal the leak ?



#22 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 05:58 AM

I have my uncles old pipe threading dies and tri-pod and I think they are adjustable , I wonder if you got the pipe treaded just a little more it would stick into the block enough to seal the leak ?


That's what I was just thinking/saying in my last post. Curious if I run the risk if cracking the block more though?

#23 GTTinkerer OFFLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 07:45 AM

Brazing the pipe to the block would be an option since it takes less heat to melt the rod than welding but will stand up to the exhaust heat much better than JB Weld did.  The area would have to be clean very well before brazing   Possibly a spot sand blaster could be used to clean out the rust, soot and whatever was used to make the attempted repair.



#24 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 08:12 AM

Thanks. So at this point it sounds like the block absolutely has to be pulled and disassembled/cleaned to braze. No shot of brazing as is.
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#25 tom tractor OFFLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 10:02 AM

leave it alone unless there is a bad leak.  sorry for the hack fix



#26 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 10:14 AM

Thanks Tom. I'm going to try to tighten the threaded pipe to see if I can close the gap some and see how she looks from there. based on a quick inspection I don't think i'll be able to close it completely.  Am I better off letting the engine warm up for a few and then trying to tighten it or should I try it while cold? Based on the hole already there i'm not sure the best way to approach. I also realize I may not be able to move it cold and may need to run it or hit it with a torch just to get it going.



#27 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 10:51 AM

My gut tells me you should not try to adjust that pipe unless you really have to. You could end up with more trouble on your hands. If you must try to fix the leak then cut the pipe off and remove it from the block by slitting it as shown in this excellent Article from our Articles section. This will use less force than trying to twist it out and have less chance of causing more damage. http://gardentractor...ler-nipple-r123



#28 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 11:10 AM

Ok thanks Brian. So it sounds like I need to gauge how bad of an exhaust leak there is then and figure out where to go from there.  There is definitely an exposed gap so there has to be some exhaust leak.  Are there any tell tale signs that would tell me what's too much vs I should leave it alone? When I ran it around the yard before noticing the fin came off for about 10 minutes it seemed to run fine except for the rpm's jumping up and down once or twice (only for a few seconds at a time) and my guess is that was more because the carb runs a little rich and needs to be adjusted. I've never dealt with an exhaust leak that close to the block so i'm not sure what to look out for.

 

Just in case it helps, I reached out to the guy I bought it from to get info on his crappy jb weld job. He did it in October and has about 10 hours of half or more throttle before selling it and it held up through that (not sure how much I believe that but he was very honest about all the other work done on it). The only reason i'm sharing is that this co-incided to when the fin broke from changing the exhaust. So that pipe threaded in there has about 10 hours on it. Not sure if that affects the opinion on trying to tighten or not.

 

Brian, I like your suggestion about removing the pipe by cutting, but if i'm just going to put another one in (since i'll never weld that broken piece back on successfully) i'm wondering what the net gain is because once I replace the exhaust i'll need to thread another pipe in there.  Am I better off tightening it further with a fresh pipe vs the one that's been sitting in there for around 10 hours in terms of the stress put on the block that already has a break in it?


Edited by cmn135, May 12, 2014 - 11:20 AM.

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#29 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 05:32 PM

After seeing the hole better and reading the great posts, I would flame weld steel rod to the nipple which will weld easy, cover as much of the hole as you can, then bronze to your new weld of steel and to the cast block. Hard to fill hole with bronze, and once you put bronze on it can"t be welded with any else.  Just a thought, Noel



#30 olcowhand OFFLINE  

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Posted May 12, 2014 - 06:36 PM

If once you get the pipe out, and there are deep enough threads, you could put 4 to 6 notches in the end of the pipe a slight bit deeper than the missing block is deep.  This will allow the pipe to go in farther without getting too tight into the NPT threads to prevent it going in far enough to fill the open space.  BUT, the threads in the block will be full of crud which needs to be removed, either with a NPT tap, or a dremel with cutter wheels, which is how I do it.  A tap would be better, but they cost a bit.






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