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Broken Fins On Case 444 Kohler Engine


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#1 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 03:48 PM

Hoping you guys will have some ideas. I recently picked up this case. The previous owner told me he has broken a fin changing the exhaust but put some type of gray putty or epoxy and said he had no leaks or problems with it. Not sure if it was BS or not but I have about 15 minutes of seat time on this and the piece fell off again. There is about a 1/4" gap opening. It's up high so not sure if oil leak is a risk.

Any thoughts? Eventually I'll see if I can source a new top to this (not sure of the proper name) but in the short term I want to close that gap. Any recommendations? Should I re-epoxy it? If so what product do you recommend? Thanks!! ImageUploadedByTapatalk1399841261.098130.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1399841278.548365.jpg
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#2 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 04:52 PM

Chris, that's a nasty break. You would need to get an entire K321 block to fix that using parts. I'm not an engine expert but I think that would be difficult to repair with epoxy and I don't think any epoxy will hold with the heat of the exhaust outlet and the stress of the exhaust system right there. You may be able to get it welded but I'm not sure on that. Looks like the bottom stud may be broken off in the block but it's hard to tell from the one picture. Perhaps others will have more useful advice for you. One thing I will say is that the previous owner has some explaining to do because it looks like more than a broken fin to me, although it's difficult to see exactly what's broke form that single picture. 


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#3 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 05:13 PM

Perfect. And I'm assuming it's a really bad idea to run without it repaired. I believe that's the cylinder head right? I'm assuming they don't sell a remanufactured one or anything like that...


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#4 nbent OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 05:23 PM

Perfect. And I'm assuming it's a really bad idea to run without it repaired. I believe that's the cylinder head right? I'm assuming they don't sell a remanufactured one or anything like that...


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that is part of the block so you would have to get another block. you might be able to get away with running it. before i get a whole new bock i would see about getting it welded 



#5 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 06:08 PM

Shows what I know about old motors. So this is a one piece engine as opposed to a cylinder head mounted to the block? Pardon the dumb questions I'm still learning.


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#6 dodge trucker ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 06:14 PM

no there is a separate head but it is not a "jug" where it includes all the cylinder fins like some 2 cycle engines have.


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#7 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 06:50 PM

no there is a separate head but it is not a "jug" where it includes all the cylinder fins like some 2 cycle engines have.

Ok thanks that's helpful. I can't for the life of me find an engine diagram. So it sounds like the fins on the K321a are not part of the removeable head and are part of the block. 

 

I'll see about welding. Currently as you can see from the pic there is threaded black pipe (I think) screwed in there to connect the exhaust. If I go back to weld the fin (if it even can be) am I better off using the exhaust piece as is or find one of the original style models that will use a flange and then pull the whole exhaust, get it welded, then replace with the flange style.  Not sure what's better due to the 1/4" hole in there.  I have no idea how air tight welding this piece will be i've never had to have anything fixed by welding before.



#8 EconChuck OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 06:51 PM

Hi,

If it is not leaking where the pipe is threaded into the block, I would run it.

Like said above, the ultimate fix is a different block. The possibility of welding the cast iron

is not too probable You will need to look for a block with the mounting provisions for the hyd pump

mount. 

Good luck.

Chuck 



#9 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 06:56 PM

Is it leaking exhaust ??

Hard to weld that because of the fins and the epoxy on it. Not sure what else to say other than , how did it happen ???

Noel

#10 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 06:59 PM

Thanks Chuck. The more I look at pics online of blocks the more i'm realizing welding may not work. when you say leaking do you mean an exhaust leak or fluid leak? There's a 1/4" gap/hole so there is definitely an exhaust leak i'd imagine. This sucks as the guy told me he broke it and said he epoxied it and it held fine. I didn't know enough to walk away and now i'm pretty sure this completely diminished the deal I got on this tractor.



#11 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 07:00 PM

Is it leaking exhaust ??

Hard to weld that because of the fins and the epoxy on it. Not sure what else to say other than , how did it happen ???

Noel

Hi Noel,

 

I'd have to imagine because of the gap it should be leaking but when I ran it i didn't notice any exhaust pouring out or anything like that but mine doesn't smoke so it's hard to tell and it's too warm to see it.  The previous owner said he cracked the piece when he tried to remove the old rotted exhaust pipe.



#12 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 07:14 PM

If you are going to run it you need to make sure the exhaust system is properly braced back to the engine, not to the tractor. That will help take some of the strain off the exhaust port where the pipe is screwed in.  There is a Kohler K series service manual in our manuals section that will give you information on the K321. As for parts diagrams I think they are available on line perhaps from the Kohler site or from Kohler parts dealers like opeengines.com 


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#13 propane1 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 07:15 PM

Oh , I see. If there is no exhaust noise I would use it. You would hear it if its leaking exhaust. Maybe J B Weld may help, but I have never used it , but heard great things about it. Noel

#14 cmn135 ONLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 08:08 PM

Here is a closer pic of the hole. I've been doing some more research and most people comment like you guys do that welding those fins back on probably won't work too well.

That being said, what if the piping is left as is and the hole is welded shut? I'll never be able to mount an exhaust by the flange again but this block is now useless for a restoration anyways.

Also, considering it's only small piece of fin broken if I do weld it shut is there any chance of overheating from the missing fin? Not sure how much one small piece affects it.

2ytubyne.jpg

Edited by cmn135, May 11, 2014 - 08:09 PM.


#15 marlboro180 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 11, 2014 - 10:39 PM

Good old JB weld has met it's match!  Looks like that is the same color of the magic epoxy, and it is good to only about 500 degrees depending on the type used.

 

CMn, that threaded pipe has what is known as NPT threads on it, and the threads taper down  smaller and smaller the clsoer you get to the end  of the pipe. The result is that the pipe is real, real thin right where that " hole " is , I would put a good bet on that what you are seeing is the actual end of the pipe itself.

 

As far as welding that sh=ut, I know of only a couple people that would attemt that , and even have a slight chance of making it work and yes,  it would most likely be a one time repair at best.   Some nickle rod and a magician ( AA comes to mind ) might make it work for welding.

 

I might tackling that myself, but only if I owned the thing personally. And that, I would maybe break out the torches and see if I could braze it up, praying I would not turn things into a nice glowing molten lava flow.    A guy with a TIG might give it a whirl too, but prolly with the same caution :) 

 

Cast is notoriously pourous, and does not like to be mended.

 

If that machine were mine, I would run right out to the car parts store and get all the cool exhaust repair stuff they have, and spoon in some of that putty - like material first.   Then I would pull out the Jeggs water activated header wrap , and wrap that sucker as tight as I could  and drive it away down the lawn with abandon thrown to the wind. 

 

 

May the force be with you . :smilewink:


Edited by marlboro180, May 11, 2014 - 10:41 PM.

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