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New To Me Case 444


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#76 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 06:19 AM

Matt. I'm not familiar with the Hydrive system and am trying to understand how that flow control works to improve performance at low speeds. It seems like the regular speed control is simply a valve which reduces pressure when it reduces flow, but the flow control will allow full pressure while maintaining the flow rate. Have I got that straight? This is a detail of hydrive operation that is nice to know for those of us who would consider buying one but know little about them. Thanks for posting this great restoration topic. The tractor looks great and it's nice to see the additions like the front and rear wheel weight brackets. 


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#77 bowtiebutler956 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 08:55 AM

Matt. I'm not familiar with the Hydrive system and am trying to understand how that flow control works to improve performance at low speeds. It seems like the regular speed control is simply a valve which reduces pressure when it reduces flow, but the flow control will allow full pressure while maintaining the flow rate. Have I got that straight? This is a detail of hydrive operation that is nice to know for those of us who would consider buying one but know little about them. Thanks for posting this great restoration topic. The tractor looks great and it's nice to see the additions like the front and rear wheel weight brackets. 

 Brian, your exactly right. The original travel control reduces flow, and pressure when slowing down, which made this tractor borderline worthless when using it for ground engaging work (like tilling) where you need to go slow, and have alot of power to the wheels.  The flow control only limits flow, not pressure. When using the flow control, you set the tractors original travel control to full speed, and use the new FCV to control your ground speed. When not using the FCV, you simply set it to wide open, and use the tractors factory travel control.  A flow control was a Case dealer installed option, but I don't think it should have been optional. I think it should have been standard, as the performance of these machines is very limited without it. I've got a few hours of seat time with the new FCV installed, and this 444 feels like a different tractor. It is so much more enjoyable.

 

Thanks for the kind words Brian.

 

Matt 


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#78 Cat385B ONLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 09:11 AM

 A flow control was a Case dealer installed option, but I don't think it should have been optional. I think it should have been standard, as the performance of these machines is very limited without it.

 

When Case was sold to Ingersoll, Ingersoll made the FCV standard, incorporated into the travel and lift valve. That process was started in 1985, and completed during the 1986 model year build. Any Ingersoll made after 1986 will have it standard.

 

If were to look at one of these, any of these will models will have the FCV built in:

 

Model, Product Identification Number with the FCV standard:

 

220: above 14090929

222: above 14069686

224: above 14070795

444: above 14094619

446: above 14074314

448: above 14075994


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#79 bowtiebutler956 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 03:38 PM

When Case was sold to Ingersoll, Ingersoll made the FCV standard, incorporated into the travel and lift valve. That process was started in 1985, and completed during the 1986 model year build. Any Ingersoll made after 1986 will have it standard.

 

If were to look at one of these, any of these will models will have the FCV built in:

 

Model, Product Identification Number with the FCV standard:

 

220: above 14090929

222: above 14069686

224: above 14070795

444: above 14094619

446: above 14074314

448: above 14075994

 Cat, I don't mean to argue, but I believe the valve your talking about is the Holding Valve, not the Flow Control Valve (FCV). I installed a late model Travel Control in my 444, because of the built in holding valve, but if you wanted a FCV on an Ingersoll, it was still dealer installed on the right side of the dash tower.  I'll PM you a pic of a dealer installed FCV on an Ingersoll 4020, as its not mine. 

 

Matt


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#80 Cat385B ONLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 04:54 PM

Matt, you are correct. It's the holding valve, which prevents you from hitting ludicrous speed on a downhill slope, to which the above info refers to.


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#81 bowtiebutler956 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 05:05 PM

 Its all good Cat, even the best of us are wrong every once in awhile.  :bigrofl:  For me, I'm happy if I'm right, every once in awhile!  :hitting_self_roller:

 

Matt


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#82 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 07:02 PM

Sounds like this Hydrive system in basic trim is not as versatile as a hydrostatic transmission. The good thing is that it doesn't sound that difficult to add these improvements. 


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#83 Rock farmer OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 08:10 PM

Brian, your exactly right. The original travel control reduces flow, and pressure when slowing down, which made this tractor borderline worthless when using it for ground engaging work (like tilling) where you need to go slow, and have alot of power to the wheels.  The flow control only limits flow, not pressure. When using the flow control, you set the tractors original travel control to full speed, and use the new FCV to control your ground speed. When not using the FCV, you simply set it to wide open, and use the tractors factory travel control.  A flow control was a Case dealer installed option, but I don't think it should have been optional. I think it should have been standard, as the performance of these machines is very limited without it. I've got a few hours of seat time with the new FCV installed, and this 444 feels like a different tractor. It is so much more enjoyable.
 
Thanks for the kind words Brian.
 
Matt


I don't know.
I think I'd take issue with that.
I got my 1980 444 about the same time you got yours.
I've found it's a good tiller and mold board plow machine.
Mine has the holding valve in it. But, no flow control valve.
My land is flat. And, I've only tilled previously tilled soil.
But, I saw no need for a flow control valve.
Maybe your working it harder than most users?

Joe
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#84 bowtiebutler956 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 03, 2014 - 08:47 PM

I don't know.
I think I'd take issue with that.
I got my 1980 444 about the same time you got yours.
I've found it's a good tiller and mold board plow machine.
Mine has the holding valve in it. But, no flow control valve.
My land is flat. And, I've only tilled previously tilled soil.
But, I saw no need for a flow control valve.
Maybe your working it harder than most users?

Joe

 I'm sorry Joe, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Up till now, I've been using a Wheel Horse C-160 for my tilling, and all I had to do was put it in first gear, low range, and it would go very slow, and work the soil up really good. If I wanted too, I could climb off that tractor, and just let it creep along tilling. Then I got my 444, which physically is a much larger machine, and it has a larger tiller. When I tried to go slow to work the ground up really good, it would come to a stop, because of a lack of power to the wheels, so I would push the travel control further forward, and it ended up going to fast! Maybe if I didn't have my C-160 to compare it with, then I might could have gotten used to it, but I just wasn't happy with its performance. Our ground is harder than many parts of the country, but I really felt like that shouldn't matter, as it didn't affect my C-160.

 You may have softer soil, so you don't require a FCV. I wish that was the case for me, as this was a somewhat expensive modification. I figured that after putting so much work into refurbishing my 444, I wanted to be able to really enjoy working it. The difference this FCV made in its tilling performance is AMAZING. This beast will now creep along as slow as my C-160, and it feels unstoppable.  

 I probably shouldn't have called it worthless, as this 444 is a very well built machine, but at this particular task (tilling) it was really frustrating me. However, I'm very satisfied now. :thumbs: 

 

Matt 


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#85 Rock farmer OFFLINE  

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Posted May 04, 2014 - 04:48 AM

Matt, no offense taken!
I just don't understand?
I have a Simplicity, a Wheel Horse and a Jacobsen with tillers.
The Case was as good or better than those right out of the gate.
I'm still working on mine. I know the carb needs to be rebuilt.
And the head needs to be de-carbed.
Did you rebuild your engine at the same time?
Did you run the tiller clock wise and counter clock wise?
The only thing that stopped my Case was when I hit a large rock.
Which, unfortunately, is not uncommon around here!

Thanks!
Joe
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#86 bowtiebutler956 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 04, 2014 - 09:17 AM

 Joe, all I can think, is its a difference in soil. As far as tiller rotation goes, I run it forward, or clockwise if your looking at it from the right side hand of the tractor. I did rebuild the engine at the time I refurbished the tractor. You can see the rebuild back on page 2 of this thread, and I believe you had commented on it as well. I've been very happy with the engine as it runs really strong, and I've yet to do anything with it that was to much for it to handle. I really like that its still STD bore, and STD crank as well.

 I look forward to seeing more pics of your 444, and I'm a little envious of your long frame, as I'm 6'3" tall, and it would be nice to have some extra leg room.  :D

 

Matt


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#87 Rock farmer OFFLINE  

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Posted May 04, 2014 - 03:04 PM

I just did a little tilling in a garden patch that was just weeds last year.
image.jpg
Engine needs some attention. Decarb head and rebuild carb at a min.
More of a problem is the steering.
Seat could be better too.
I'm glad it's a long frame. My brother has a 446 short frame.
I tilled fast and slow with it.
I got a little better result when I went along at a crawl.
Tines were collecting vines.

Some more pics
image.jpg image.jpg

Joe
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#88 bowtiebutler956 OFFLINE  

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Posted May 04, 2014 - 04:11 PM

 Thats certainly a fine looking 444 you have there Joe, and it looks like it does a great job tilling up your soil. I'd say our soil is very different, and I like yours better!  :D  So whats wrong with your steering? Excessive play? I had to rebuild the steering on mine, which included a new steering shaft with gear, all new tie rod ends, and replacing the front axle pivot pin. It made a big difference, as you could turn my steering wheel almost a full half turn before it would catch when I got it. I found some pretty good prices on my parts, and if you would like that info, just let me know.

 

By the way, I love your OE wheel weights! :thumbs:

 

Matt






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