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Hone, Bore, Toss


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#16 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted February 12, 2014 - 09:12 PM

So ... I didn't see much point in actually measuring the ring gap or checking for oval.  Maybe if I'd brought a ruler, but all I had was feeler gauges and, well, I don't have one that thick.  Just guessing, but this is out of spec (.012" to .022"), right?  Hard to get a consistent reading for checking oval with a gap that wide.  

 

IMG_1697.JPG

 

Here is a shot of the "1/2 under a bar" marking on the piston.

 

IMG_1698.JPG IMG_1698 (2).jpg


Edited by New.Canadian.DB.Owner, February 12, 2014 - 09:14 PM.

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#17 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted February 12, 2014 - 09:25 PM

This is just speculation but it looks like the line is over the 1/2 so it could be 1/2 a thousandths over bore.  So those could just  be proof marks from the original inspection indicating the bore was within specs. 


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#18 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted February 15, 2014 - 08:04 PM

This is just speculation but it looks like the line is over the 1/2 so it could be 1/2 a thousandths over bore.  So those could just  be proof marks from the original inspection indicating the bore was within specs. 

 

I don't think that's the case.....



#19 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted February 15, 2014 - 08:16 PM

Your ring end gap is typical for an engine that old, some I have had over .060 End Gap!

Cant you just take your feeler gauges and use multiple ones then add up the numbers?

 

Usually what I'll do is take some inside calipers and run them up and down the bore to feel if its out of round as well as moving the ring up and down the bore checking gap from top to bottom.

You did use the piston to push the ring down right? If not you will not get an accurate measurement.



#20 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted February 15, 2014 - 09:55 PM

Your ring end gap is typical for an engine that old, some I have had over .060 End Gap!

Cant you just take your feeler gauges and use multiple ones then add up the numbers?

 

Usually what I'll do is take some inside calipers and run them up and down the bore to feel if its out of round as well as moving the ring up and down the bore checking gap from top to bottom.

You did use the piston to push the ring down right? If not you will not get an accurate measurement.

 

Yes, I put the ring in the cylinder near the top & used the piston to push it down square.  I took your suggestion & used multiple feelers:  .035+.032+.030+.028+.026= 0.151"  

 

My friend brought his bore gauge over today.  We took 9 measurements: top, middle, & bottom.  12:00, 2:00, & 4:00.  All were 2.5005" or 2.501".  



#21 WNYTractorTinkerer OFFLINE  

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Posted February 16, 2014 - 07:51 AM

I'm with Rick, practice a bit before you do the real thing so you don't kick yourself all over later.  The angle looks a bit off to me, too, but that's easy to fix if you dress it gently one more round.  Honing takes practice. 

 

Remember, honing is also a smaller version of boring. I knew of a guy who honed his engine into reboring .010 over once.  True story.  I wouldn't overdo it. 

 

Check your crank before you go too much farther and make sure there is no scoring and that it is within specs.  Down here at least, the AA-AB-ABN series is fairly common so if it isn't in decent shape I would consider saying it is a good donor engine and find another copy.  I have one I could send you.  :D

 

Ben W.

That Lisle hone above has coarse stones in it..  Get a set of fine stones (#320 or so) to dress up your cylinder and your results will be better and the new rings will burn in quicker without the big bumps in your cylinder to break down and smooth out.  Make sure to scrub your cylinder walls with soap and water thoroughly to remove any left over grit from the stones before reassembling!  (ask me how I know!)  It's not as much fun to have to tear into it again!  Good luck!


Edited by WNYTractorTinkerer, February 16, 2014 - 07:53 AM.

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#22 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted February 16, 2014 - 09:31 AM

Yes, I put the ring in the cylinder near the top & used the piston to push it down square.  I took your suggestion & used multiple feelers:  .035+.032+.030+.028+.026= 0.151"  

 

My friend brought his bore gauge over today.  We took 9 measurements: top, middle, & bottom.  12:00, 2:00, & 4:00.  All were 2.5005" or 2.501".  

Glad you did it, you are getting some solid help right now.

Did you check the rod, cap and crank journal for built up, scatches, hot spots and true round ?

Thoses are good usable numbers for the bore.

 

At this rate, this engine will purr like a happy kitten :thumbs:


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#23 New.Canadian.DB.Owner OFFLINE  

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Posted February 16, 2014 - 01:40 PM

I have 220 & 240 stones.  The 320's are a special order item at my local store (go figure).  I hadn't thought of giving the cylinder a good scrubbing before final assembly.  Sounds counter-productive to wash steel with water after removing the rust, but if you say to do it, who an I to question experience?

 

The connecting rod & cap are toast.  They were 1.050" - 1.060", which is way over size.  I have a new set on order.  

 

The crank looks good and mic's at 0.993" - 0.995".  

 

There are some serious heat marks of the crank counterweights, but I am certain that is from the factory grinding.    

 

IMG_1771.JPG


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#24 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted February 17, 2014 - 08:10 AM

That is the nice thing about aluminum alloy cap and rod, they go first before the crank.

After washing and cleaning wipe everything down with clean fresh oil.

Yes, would not worry about the counter weights, as you stated, ground down from the factory to balance the two counter weights into specs, the journal looks good, at 0.993 to 0.995 with no hot spots, that is fine, emery cloth it a little with some oil if needed, wash, wipe clean and wipe oil onto it.

While you are in there check for end play, for the ABN and AKN within .004 to .002 using the shims, .006 over would be fine, little loose is better then tight, with the roller bearing you do not have to worry about readjustment, too tight and it puts a lot of side thrust into the bearing and flywheel end bushing

break in will wear it into happy zone.

Make sure the one way check ball on the oil pump is working properly, assemble in the crank case and work the plunger assuring it is filling the oil trough.

 

 

I have 220 & 240 stones.  The 320's are a special order item at my local store (go figure).  I hadn't thought of giving the cylinder a good scrubbing before final assembly.  Sounds counter-productive to wash steel with water after removing the rust, but if you say to do it, who an I to question experience?

 

The connecting rod & cap are toast.  They were 1.050" - 1.060", which is way over size.  I have a new set on order.  

 

The crank looks good and mic's at 0.993" - 0.995".  

 

There are some serious heat marks of the crank counterweights, but I am certain that is from the factory grinding.    

 

attachicon.gifIMG_1771.JPG

 

Would not worry about the rust on the bore after washing, getting the grit out is critical, a light application of engine oil after the water has dried would be good.

After assy you will ''set'' the piston rings during break in, light rust will be thrown out aiding in the break in.


Edited by trowel, February 17, 2014 - 08:10 AM.

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#25 boyscout862 OFFLINE  

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Posted February 17, 2014 - 09:46 AM

Before starting a new engine, fill it with oil and turn it by hand to lubricate everything. I learned long ago to run a new or rebuilt engine only 15 to 30 minutes before the first oil change. You will see that the old oil will be full of metal flakes. The sooner the flakes are out the better. Next oil change at a couple of hours then the regular interval.

 

If you wash with laundry detergent and water besure to have an air hose with blower attachment to quickly remove the water. Blow out all bolt holes and little places that water can be trapped. Once dry, oil it up good. Becareful of paper towels or rags leaving pieces behind. Good Luck, Rick 


Edited by boyscout862, February 17, 2014 - 09:49 AM.

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#26 Bill 76 OFFLINE  

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Posted February 19, 2014 - 08:21 PM

At the engine shop where I worked part time we would wash block with solvent and soap and water spray it dry with air and wipe wd40 on the machined surfaces and in the cylinders bores,Then the cylinders would be wiped out with coffee filters and ATF--you would not believe the black junk that would come out of the cross hatch,This was repeted several times with clean coffee filters until clean.
The OLD MASTER also used ATF to lube the piston and cylinders with ATF when assembling engine--He said it was better then oil for the first few seconds on start up because the rings get super hot on the fresh hone and can burn oil into the cross hatch and hinder brake in.
Every engine he built from one lungers to 800hp ground pounding sprint car engines were all done that way.
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#27 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted February 20, 2014 - 05:34 PM

At the engine shop where I worked part time we would wash block with solvent and soap and water spray it dry with air and wipe wd40 on the machined surfaces and in the cylinders bores,Then the cylinders would be wiped out with coffee filters and ATF--you would not believe the black junk that would come out of the cross hatch,This was repeted several times with clean coffee filters until clean.
The OLD MASTER also used ATF to lube the piston and cylinders with ATF when assembling engine--He said it was better then oil for the first few seconds on start up because the rings get super hot on the fresh hone and can burn oil into the cross hatch and hinder brake in.
Every engine he built from one lungers to 800hp ground pounding sprint car engines were all done that way.

You know, when i have some time to spare we should have a nice chat, i used kerosene instead.



#28 Cvans ONLINE  

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Posted February 20, 2014 - 06:49 PM

We used half Motor oil and half STP. Bearing surfaces were done with white lithium grease. The engine could set for months and would still be lubricated when started. If the rings are getting that hot on start up then it sounds like the cylinders are lacking lubrication. 

I'd bet there other ways of doing it also.

Just my 2 cents worth. 



#29 Bill 76 OFFLINE  

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Posted February 22, 2014 - 04:17 AM

 

We used half Motor oil and half STP. Bearing surfaces were done with white lithium grease. The engine could set for months and would still be lubricated when started. If the rings are getting that hot on start up then it sounds like the cylinders are lacking lubrication. 
I'd bet there other ways of doing it also.
Just my 2 cents worth.

 Yes you are correct,there are many good ways to lube a cylinder and I see nothing wrong with the way your doing it.
I just read something that I am not ready to try,google total seal dry assembly lube.Dry lube? I would have to watch someone else try that before I would be sold on it.They must know something I don't but I not ready to try it.I'll stick to the time proven ways that we have talked about here.
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#30 trowel OFFLINE  

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Posted February 22, 2014 - 05:01 AM

You might laugh when you read this but i dry honed a each cylinder to about .002 under overbore specs once on a dirty old stuck chevy 305 cu. in. After filling the cylinters with ATF and break fluids it broke loose, carb worked so i fed it some gas and fired it as is bedding the rings back into the bore and checking for rod knock.

Dropped the oil pan and popped each piston checking the crank for hot spots and scoring, all was fine, oil pump just needed cleaning.

Using coarse stones, took a looooong time to hone each cylinder overbore, one of the rings broke and scored the cylinder walls, was for demo derby car so no real money was thrown at it.

Before honing i used grease on the rings and the story it told me was piston slap and ovalness was not too bad to be sent out for the boring mill, was almost already .005 over.

Spec'ed out the cylinders after honing and burned in the bore dry using used oversized rings on the engine stand on head pipes, yanked the heads, read the cylinders, spun the rings on the hot ones and burned them in dry with oil on the ok ones.

Next day i put a little kero into each cylinder for pop off and broke it in before dropping it into the tucked and rolled Ford Crown Vic demo car.

Pounded the car into the ground bringing several guys down with me :thumbs: engine was so hot you could see the cylinder walls glowing, the next day i hit the switch and it fired up !! dang ! can't kill it.

Gave it away to be finished of by someone else.






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