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Help Me With Hydro Ideas


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#1 glgrumpy ONLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2014 - 06:00 PM

Have manual Plastic King, they are known to have bad clutch/trans set-up.  They made hydros later that were better, but parts are scarce and NLA from trans maker.  I keep looking for a hydro unit, that is not too big and has 3/4" shafts sticking out both ways. Not sure they exist or where used if they do. Most have a bevel gear and special castings to mount to specific rear-ends. I want to just put it in line from engine to hydro trans, then shaft to my rear-end in tractor now. Would use shafts with U-joints. I'm wondering if those units with gears can have gear removed then and me put on a joint right away?  I could make a bracket to fit whatever shape the case needs, but not sure about a seal there if needed?  I'm bidding on a Simplicity one now on epay that looks rugged, have seen the brand in mags for parts and such, but has a taper gear one end. Am I way off and dreaming I can work with this?  OR, have you guys got diff suggestions of units that are simple like I really want? 

 

 Then the issure of controls come up to make it safe. Most have lever for forward and reverse that is easy, but best to have a safety brake that goes to Neutral when used, just like new ones. Where to have lever or better foot pedal and such is not figured in my  mind yet. Would really need to have the driveline installed in tractor before thinking that up, I think.  Maybe I'm way out of my league on this idea. Really love my Power Kings, but would like to make them more usuable and longer lasting.



#2 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2014 - 06:15 PM

I need some clarification, are you looking for an inline hydro with a 3/4 input and 3/4 output? If so I would think you could use something like a WH C series hydro setup, but you would have to machine down the output shaft to the desired size. I would also tink that that the some of the ones you are seeing with bevel gears on the output shaft could have the same treatment.



#3 glgrumpy ONLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2014 - 08:02 PM

Wheelhorse does seem simple and see those offered all the time, BUT, still need to bolt up to specific trans??  Most of those gears don't come off with pins do they? Like the shaft is solid all the way in?  That's why you mention machining?  Some equipment, not really tractors I have seen have easy looking set-ups, but finding something parted is rare. Like lawn rollers, gravel levelers and blacktop rollers and such. Even some gravel compactors have drives like I think would work.



#4 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2014 - 10:19 PM

I am only familiar with the WH sundstrand used in the D and C series. The WH hydro motor is specific to the trans and the trans is the sump for the hydro system. The gear on the output of the hydro motor is machined into the shaft. So if you were to use it you would have to fab up a "Housing" that would house the couplling from the hydro to the drive shaft and also act as a sump for the hydro fluid.

 

That sound like a pain, have you thought about using a case hydraulic drive system instead? Pump, valve, motor, and tank. I think it would be easier to mod that into a drive system than a hydrostatic. You would loose a little effeciency, I  think Tudor said that Hydraulics are only about 60%-70% where Hydro is about 80%.  But you would gain ease and versitility.


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#5 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 06:07 AM

Coldone has it almost right. The drain for Sundstrand hydros is through the bearing supporting the output shaft and gear and a sump is required for that fluid. However, the gear does come off of the Series 15 Sundstrands. It's held on with a snap ring. I removed one last night.

 

A better unit is the stand alone hydro pump as used in zero turn mowers. You still require a hydraulic motor to supply power to the final drive, but it does afford all the other benefits of using a hydro transmission over pure hydraulic drive when the right additional components are used. It also leaves you with the same problems of return to neutral when the brake is applied that you mentioned in the opening post. Here is one option, found on this page.


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#6 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 06:36 AM

 

A better unit is the stand alone hydro pump as used in zero turn mowers. You still require a hydraulic motor to supply power to the final drive, but it does afford all the other benefits of using a hydro transmission over pure hydraulic drive when the right additional components are used.

I was thinking on the same lines too , finding an zeroturn with bad engine  and use the pump and motor controls ect . The only problem is there going to be a problem because the PK use a pretty steep gear reduction from the input shaft to axle speed , to get the HIGH gear you would need the  hyd  motor spinning 3600 rpm , if I'm thinking corectly



#7 Canawler OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 12:08 PM

I doubt you would find one cheaply but the Sundstrand used in the Pennsylvania Meteors is very close to what you're looking for although it's definitely not small.  It was a stand alone unit that bolted to a frame cross-member and had a reservoir either attached or mounted on the firewall.  The output used a driveshaft and the input was a belt drive pulley that I'm sure could be replaced with a driveshaft yoke.  The control lever just attached to the side control shaft.

 

Here's the unit itself.

2013-2-10 (9).JPG

 

This shows the control lever setup.  Unfortunately no automatic return to neutral.

2013-6-8 (6).JPG

 

 



#8 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 01:50 PM

This motor is a close match to the White pump. Top speed may suffer as much as 20% but it will start a load moving easier than a gear drive.



#9 glgrumpy ONLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 05:32 PM

Umm, confused. Most are PUMPS, and that requires a second unit for a Trans/Motor???  I'm thinking more like trans and pump in one unit. Isn't that what most hydros are?  That is why I want a direct in-line shaft layout. Motor drive shaft in ONE end, the rear driveshaft to rear-end OUT the other. I can add a tank if fluid needed. Shouldn't need seperate control, cause it is ON the unit?

 

ON the Case stuff. I DID buy up all the case parts to do just that, seemed easiest. The motor on those has real long shaft that goes into the rear gear case. Not sure if end of motor is sealed or not where shaft comes out. I had a shaft mount pump or engine even. Just got tired of trying to think how to put it all together and use that long shaft to try to drive a u-jointed shaft and other details that frustrated me. Perhaps whole idea is beyond my ability. 



#10 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 06:28 PM

. Perhaps whole idea is beyond my ability. 

 

No it aint, we all have your back. We will give ideas whether they are good or bad.



#11 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 06:40 PM

Umm, confused. Most are PUMPS, and that requires a second unit for a Trans/Motor???  I'm thinking more like trans and pump in one unit. Isn't that what most hydros are?  That is why I want a direct in-line shaft layout. Motor drive shaft in ONE end, the rear driveshaft to rear-end OUT the other. I can add a tank if fluid needed. Shouldn't need seperate control, cause it is ON the unit?

 

I think thats called the "inline" configuration. The sundstrand 15 comes in an inline (like on the MF 1855) but still uses the rearend as the sump for the fluid. I cant speak about any other types.

 

ON the Case stuff. I DID buy up all the case parts to do just that, seemed easiest. The motor on those has real long shaft that goes into the rear gear case. Not sure if end of motor is sealed or not where shaft comes out. I had a shaft mount pump or engine even. Just got tired of trying to think how to put it all together and use that long shaft to try to drive a u-jointed shaft and other details that frustrated me. 

 

You can use any hyd motor that is rated the same as the case hyd motor, so you could get another that would fit your ideas better. Im thinking a hyd motor mounted in between the frame rails where the trans used to be, lovejoy or similar type of coupling on the end of the hyd motor shaft and coupled to a modified drive shaft. The drive shaft would be modified to accept the other half of the coupling. Most of the hy motors are a sealed unit so all fluid gets returned back to the system and tank. 

 

Tudor will be along to help straighten me out, but those are some general ideas on how to get you where you want to be.



#12 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 06:50 PM

 

A better unit is the stand alone hydro pump as used in zero turn mowers. You still require a hydraulic motor to supply power to the final drive, but it does afford all the other benefits of using a hydro transmission over pure hydraulic drive when the right additional components are used. It also leaves you with the same problems of return to neutral when the brake is applied that you mentioned in the opening post. Here is one option, found on this page.

 

Bob, will those motors work with the variable displacement pumps?  Two hoses, motor rotation depends on which way the fluid comes in from pump?



#13 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 08:59 PM

Is this what you had in mind ?

 

http://www.eaton.com...ions/PCT_261208



#14 glgrumpy ONLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2014 - 09:29 PM

Alc, that's exactly what I would want. One in picture shows two shafts to put on whatever drive you want. Looks like 11 series is what is needed. I have heard many tractors say they had 11 series in them but they never have plane shafts, but gears and more case castings and such to fit an axle. THAT's the parts I don't want on it.  Looks like you need to be dealer to look around on that site?  Wondering how much new ones are?  I'm sure too much.  Yep, that's the rig right there.



#15 Alc ONLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2014 - 06:42 AM

I never saw one in person but maybe the Eaton unit could be removed from a transaxle and used by it's self ?   Maybe those that have worked on them will be able to help you find a tractor or equipment . I'll be following your progress because I have a old PK 1612 frame and rear that might make a neat tractor , the trans , motor ect went on the 2418 fel






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