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1855 Snow Blower Lift


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#1 Petenpole OFFLINE  

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Posted January 05, 2014 - 09:00 AM

I am struggling to find an solution, and will throw this out to the group for thoughts.

 

My 1855  is having a lot of trouble lifting the snow blower when there is snow packed in the bottom or laying on the outside  of the housing after an hours worth of work.

 

Some history: I have rebuilt the hydro and its working great the  3 pt lift is working well and I have swapped out the mid lift cylinder. I had another one here and changed the cylinder and lines.

 

I dont have the pastic tunnel cover on the tractor so I can watch the cylinder. When the blower is loaded in snow the cylinder just wont move, it almost appears as though the cyliner is either to small (piston diameter) or the pressure is to low. On this design the piston is pushed to the bottom of the cylinder (retracting the shaft) when the blower is being raised. When the blowe is lowered it appears to use the weight of the blower to drop it and the shaft extends from the cylinder.

 

Now when the snow is gone the lift just raises and lower smooth as silk.

 

Yes I do have the 2 springs attached per the manual, and i have now added 2 more springs, but I dont thing the 2 additional springs are going to help very much. The design of the lift linkage is not what I would call impressive.

 

So here is the question(s):

 

Is this a common issue with my friends in the northern parts of the world?

If this is a common issue what tricks have you found to make the lift work better?

General thoughts or ideas from anyone?

 

Yep today here in KC we have another 4 inches and I have lots of driveways to clean for my elderly neighbors. They refer to my 1855 with the snow blower as the  " FRAKENBLOWER"  fitting name given how ugly it looks with this operator.

 

 

 

 


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#2 OkieGt OFFLINE  

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Posted January 05, 2014 - 10:04 AM

Just because the cylinder  isn't leaking doesn't mean the fluid isn't bypassing it causing a low pressure situation, put a pressure gauge on the out line, see what ya got


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#3 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted January 07, 2014 - 01:19 PM

At 700 psi, that cylinder will pull almost 1900 lb. Depending on how high the blower can be lifted and how much of the stroke is being used to lift it off the ground, it could very well be maxed out for pressure with the extra snow stuck to the blower.

 

Do a pressure check at the guage port beside the implement lift supply line with the cylinder bottomed out. It's on the left side of the hydro beside the line. Standard relief valve setting is 700 psi from Sundstrand, but JD uses the optional relief setting of 1000 psi in the JD400 with the same hydro. Anything markedly less than 700 psi indicates a wear issue in the cylinder.

 

The blower that I have for my 1655 is an aftermarket unit that is heavier than the standard thrower and adjustments were made to the lift linkage on the blower frame at the factory to compensate for the extra weight. It won't lift as high and the system is very close to being maxxed out. There are no helper springs for mine.

 

Sorry. I can't help you with mods to the lifting linkage for your thrower. I don't know what it looks like, but extra springs will help.


Edited by TUDOR, January 07, 2014 - 01:23 PM.

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#4 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted January 07, 2014 - 07:31 PM

Just because the cylinder  isn't leaking doesn't mean the fluid isn't bypassing it causing a low pressure situation, put a pressure gauge on the out line, see what ya got

 

My thoughts too.

Considering you've rebuild the hydro, and it and the 3pt are working fine, I'd be looking at the

mid lift Cyl being the problem. Piston seals are probably border line. I think you can still get those

seal kits. As Mike said, put a Tee, and pressure gauge on the back end of the cyl.

There's no way, a bit, or a lot of snow hanging on the blower should stall that cylinder.

On my 1650, I can lift the blower fast enough, to knock the snow off, when it stops out.

 

It just occurred to me. That valve under the fender has an adjustable bypass. It'll be easier

to try to adjust that first, to see if it helps, rather than try to plumb in a gauge.

Just a thought.


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#5 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 05:08 AM

Will, the 1650 normally has a 42" blower and the 1855 a 48" blower, plus the 1855 blower is at least 4" further from the cylinder exacting an additional toll on the lifting geometry and force availability.


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#6 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 06:57 AM

Will, the 1650 normally has a 42" blower and the 1855 a 48" blower, plus the 1855 blower is at least 4" further from the cylinder exacting an additional toll on the lifting geometry and force availability.

 

Any best guesstimate Bob, on what these additional strains on the system might translate into

pounds hanging out there?


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#7 Petenpole OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 07:04 AM

Thasnk you each and everyone, I am going to try and find the "adjustable Bypass" and see if I can adjust the pressure there first.

 

Witgh 2 cylinders both acting the same I cannot imagine I really have 2 worn out cylinders. And before I try and plumb in a T  and pressure guage  maybe I could get lucky adjusting the valve.

 

Any suggestions on how to do it w/o adding a guage?



#8 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2014 - 07:19 AM

Do you have the service manual? (#56619)

 

It describes it in there.

 

http://gardentractor...-1650-and-1855/


Edited by IamSherwood, January 09, 2014 - 07:24 AM.


#9 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2014 - 07:01 AM

Any best guesstimate Bob, on what these additional strains on the system might translate into

pounds hanging out there?

Without seeing the linkage and knowing what the relative weights are, guesstimate is the only term. Actually WAG is closer.

 

Somewhere between 100 and 400 lb force on the cylinder. Maybe 25 - 30 lb for the difference between blowers, plus the effect of the different geometry? IDK.

 

Bear in mind that a cylinder will lift at the almost same rate up until the relief pops. Then it stops. You could be within 85 psi of relief pressure with your 1650 and never know it without a guage. With his heavier blower, He could be within 5 psi, until the snow sticks to the blower. Then he's done.

 

I have a spare set of 1655 valves and there is no relief valve incorporated. I also have 2 FEL's that have the same valve sets that do have the relief incorporated. There is a 700 psi implement relief in the Sundstrand. If you want to bump that one up JD uses the optional 1000 psi relief in their Sundstrands. If there is a relief in the valve set as well as the one in the hydro, the lower setting rules. Bear in mind that Sundstrand rates the charge pump at 1000 psi max!

 

Getting back to the geometry, a cylinder acting at 90° to a lever transfers 100% of its force to the lever. Every degree away from 90° that percentage is less. At 60°, only 86.6% of cylinder force is transferred. That theoretical 1900 lb force is reduced to 1645 lb force. At 50°, the percentage drops to 76.6%. That's the sine of the angle as a percentage. Sine 50° = 0.76604.

 

Clear as mud?


Edited by TUDOR, January 10, 2014 - 07:06 AM.

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#10 TUDOR OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2014 - 07:14 AM

Thasnk you each and everyone, I am going to try and find the "adjustable Bypass" and see if I can adjust the pressure there first.

 

Witgh 2 cylinders both acting the same I cannot imagine I really have 2 worn out cylinders. And before I try and plumb in a T  and pressure guage  maybe I could get lucky adjusting the valve.

 

Any suggestions on how to do it w/o adding a guage?

Don't mess with the relief valve without a functioning guage correctly positioned in the system. Real bad things can happen when you don't know the results of your modifications. Usually expensive bad things!

 

One member on another forum made the fatal error of connecting a guage to the output of a pump without benefit of a T. He started the engine and the pump housing split. There was nowhere for the fluid to go and the pressure shot straight up instantly. He had to buy a new pump and clean up the oil spill.


Edited by TUDOR, January 10, 2014 - 07:24 AM.

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#11 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2014 - 07:47 AM

Thanks for that explanation Bob, and the good advice on the Tee and gauge.

 

There must have been a different valve used at some point, as I know my 1450

has adjustable relief built in the valve. The 3 point, could barely lift itself, until

I went through the procedure spelled out in the manual. I'm not sure how or why

it was set so low, but it's been working great for 4 years since I set it.



#12 Petenpole OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2014 - 07:43 AM

I had the manual and I appreciate the reminder " Read the D... Manual " first

 

I try any adjustments without a gauge attached.

 

Now off to find a guage



#13 olcowhand ONLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2014 - 09:17 AM

Yes, just a few years ago my Dad wanted to check the pressure of the pump on our "Big Dipper" loader.  He hooked the gauge directly to the pump.  I told him it was a guaranteed way to destroy the pump, but he insisted it would be ok if he just bumped the starter with ignition dead.  I told him what was going to happen & it did.......cracked the pump like a nut!  And yes, I did say "I told you so"!  We fortunately had another pump, but what a waste of a perfectly good pump.


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#14 Petenpole OFFLINE  

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Posted January 26, 2014 - 07:00 AM

After having digested all the suggestions. I pulled 2 manuals. One for the snapper /massey 16/1855 and the sundstrand 15 series manual.

 

I gather most of the discussion around the T  fitting was directed to the EATONs in the snapper models.

 

I attached a pressure guage to the Sundstrand  at the charge pump line that goes to the spool valves.  (Found one at the local Northern Tool store reasonably priced) see attached page from sundstrand manual

 

With the tractor running full throttle the line pressure was just about 50Lbs, which seems to be in line with the Sundstrand  manual which indicates the charge pump should be around 70-150. Close enough I thought

 

Once warmed and the lines pressurized  the spool valves were operated and when the cylinders hit bottom and max pressure was  being applied the pressure guage read between 725-750LBS again what appears to the normal according to the series 15 manual.

 

All that being said unless I am told otherwise, its going to be my assumption that the  mid tractor cylinder(s) ( yes i have tried 2 of them) must be leaking when under a strain internally and are in need of a rebuild.

 

Attached File  Sundstrand 15 pressure guage instal..docx   413.48KB   46 downloads


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#15 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted January 26, 2014 - 08:42 AM

I just got a blank page when looking at your attachment!






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