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Sunstrand Transmission - Testing


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#1 TGaffney OFFLINE  

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Posted January 03, 2014 - 05:10 PM

Hi folks,

 

I have a 1966 or 1967 Panzer Meteor 1012 with the Sunstrand hydrostatic transmission.

 

Does anyone know of a way to test the transmission to determine how well it is functioning?

 

I was trying to plow today (first time with this tractor) and it seemed to be kind of weak when pushing snow or even when going up a hill without a load.  The tractor was good and warm - which I have heard helps.  I also was operating in low range as well as high range.  Low seemed a bit better but it was still pretty weak.

 

I filled the rear tires with fluid this past week and also added a weight box.  Perhaps the extra weight is to much for it?

 

Thanks for your input!



                       

#2 Canawler OFFLINE  

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Posted January 03, 2014 - 08:22 PM

I'm not sure how to test it other than just using it but the first two things i would check are the belt tension (make sure its not slipping) and the bypass/release valve (make sure its closed completely)
I'm wondering what you mean by high range and low range? The hydro speed varies but there's no hi/lo in the differential like some tractors.

I was also just thinking, your engine speed was running as fast as usual, right? That would also obviously affect hydro speed.
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#3 JDBrian OFFLINE  

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Posted January 04, 2014 - 07:41 AM

As mentioned above you should check out the drive train to make sure it's all connected properly, belt slip, a broken pin, stripped out axle or pulley key etc. Most hydros are designed to run at a high engine speed so if you are running the engine slow it will effect power delivery. Fluid condition and level are also important. If you haven't got the right fluid or have low fluid level or restricted flow from a blocked filter you can have problems. The linkage that controls speed is also a problem area. If it has slack in it you will slow down when a load is put on the tractor. 

  The hydro could have an internal problem as well but lets hope it's something easier and cheaper to deal with. 


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#4 TGaffney OFFLINE  

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Posted January 04, 2014 - 11:25 AM

Thanks for the replies and suggestions.

 

The Meteor has a shift lever with detents which allows the transmission to operate at set speeds.  By high and low I was referring to the lower and upper end of the shift lever - which controls speed.  I did have the engine running at full throttle - not sure what the RPMs were as I don't have a guage.

 

The belt tension could be an issue as there is no longer an idler pully on this engine - which was replaced by a previous owner.  I was powing dirt a few weeks ago and didn't have any issues at that time.  I've also not had any problems mowing or even snowblowing without the idler pulley.  Those attachments run off a PTO pulley - so possibly that is a factor why the tractor didn't seem weak. 

 

 

The transmission fluid is full.  I have been running a universal hydraulic/transmission fluid from Tractor Supply - so possibly switching to Dexron III would help.  The original manual calls for Type A transmission fluid - and I've read Dexron III is a suitable replacement.  The universal fluid is a 10W 20 - so in the cold weather we have been having maybe the viscosity is an issue?

 

I was thinking about possibly taking off the filled tires and swapping them with some unfilled tires and see if that makes a difference.

 

Any other suggestions or thoughts?



#5 Canawler OFFLINE  

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Posted January 04, 2014 - 01:23 PM

I just checked the spec sheet for the TSC fluid.  It is a bit thicker than DexIII (9.3 vs 7.3) but not a lot.  It would be noticeable on first use but the fluid would warm up quickly.

I know on mine, the belt would be very loose without a tensioner.

Have you used the release valve to roll the tractor recently.  If that is open a crack, it would cause your symptoms.


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#6 TGaffney OFFLINE  

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Posted January 04, 2014 - 09:44 PM

Thanks for the fluid spec info.  I have some of the Tractor supply fluid in a glass jar in my unheated garden shed and it was pretty thick earlier today when it was cold - maybe 15 degrees.

 

I haven't had to use the release valve before today (more on that in a bit) and it was seated and tight.

 

I figured there probably wasn't a significant difference between the hydraulic/transmission fluid and the Type A / Dexron III fluid - but I figured it wouldn't hurt to drain and refill and see what happens.  Prior to draining the transmission I figured I would drive the Meteor around a bit to warm up the fulid to add in draining.  The tractor was sluggish and I made it about 30 yards before I noticed some smoking from the engine and when I opended the hood I saw a steady stream of fluid coming out of a small hole at the base of the dipstick for the reservoir.  I had never even noticed this hole before.  When I took the cap off the reservoir fluid overflowed - the fluid was milky covered and bubbly. 

 

I then opened the free wheel vlave and pushed the tractor to a location where I could try to drain the transmission.  The transmission was draining slowly due to the cold weather.  It is supposed to warm up to the mid-40s tomorrow - so I'm hoping that helps with the draining.  I'll refill the system with the Dexron III compatible fluid I was able to find and hope for the best.

 

I'm wondering if the thicker fluid due to the cold temps plugged part of the system which caused the pressure in the system.  Any thoughts? 

 

I'm trying to figure out how to post the pictures!



#7 Clint OFFLINE  

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Posted January 04, 2014 - 11:29 PM

Milky and bubbly oil is a sign of water in the oil. If there was water in the reservoir or pump and it was 15 degrees outside the water may have froze in the pump. This could have caused restricted flow and excess pressure to build up on the supply side (Like blowing into a straw that's pinched off at the end), causing the oil to spray out of the vent hole. If your pump is functioning and the line was blocked with ice and the relief valve was also froze or bypassing, this may explain all of the issues. If it has been sitting for a while, normal condensation inside the pump may have caused the water to accumulate. See if you can get all of the old oil out, add fresh oil, run it a bit and then drain and re-fill it again. A good system flush and you may be in business. Any other ideas guys?

Was the engine itself smoking or was the drive belt smoking while engaged? If the belt was smoking, this may be because it was trying to drive a frozen or high/over pressured pump. Hopefully no seals were blown if this is the case.

Check the rear end oil too. If it's milky or foamy, change it too. Good luck and keep us posted. Oil is A LOT  cheaper than bearings and pumps!


To post pics, click "More reply options"

 

and below the text box you will see Attach files and Choose Files.

 

Click "Choose Files" and find your photos on your computer and double click it.

 

Then put your curser where you want your picture and then click add to post.

 

You can hit Preview Post to see if you like the placement of your picture.

 

It's pretty simple once you do it a time or two. This forum is VERY user friendly!


Edited by Clint, January 04, 2014 - 11:31 PM.

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#8 Canawler OFFLINE  

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Posted January 04, 2014 - 11:50 PM

The water/ice thing sounds very plausible.  If the intake line is frozen and the low pressure side was still flowing into the reservoir, it would be enough to overflow for sure.  There were two different setups on the Meteors depending on build date.  Does yours have the reservoir on the firewall or right on top of the transmission?  I could easily see the long lines on the firewall mount setup having water collect in a low spot.

I just added a file to the manuals section that has a very detailed hydraulic diagram and description of how the hydrostatic transmission works.  It's the T-75/1110/1012 tech manual under Tractors and then Pennsylvania Panzer.

 

http://gardentractor...chnical-manual/


Edited by Canawler, January 05, 2014 - 12:02 AM.

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#9 Clint OFFLINE  

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Posted January 05, 2014 - 12:06 AM

I don't have a functional Meteor much less one with a hydro, Which makes me sad. One day maybe......Anyway, I was just going by symptom, not application. I am not familiar with the hydros at all in person. Just from pictures and now your diagrams. It shouldn't matter where the reservoir is mounted. If water is in the system, whether it is mounted high or low in the system and froze, it will cause issues.


Edited by Clint, January 05, 2014 - 12:06 AM.


#10 Canawler OFFLINE  

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Posted January 05, 2014 - 12:22 AM

I don't have a functional Meteor much less one with a hydro, Which makes me sad. One day maybe......Anyway, I was just going by symptom, not application. I am not familiar with the hydros at all in person. Just from pictures and now your diagrams. It shouldn't matter where the reservoir is mounted. If water is in the system, whether it is mounted high or low in the system and froze, it will cause issues.

 

What I was getting at about the reservoir mounting was that the plastic lines they used run down from the reservoir to a low spot and then back up a little, at least on mine.  That would create a great spot for moisture to settle out of the oil and freeze, potentially blocking the pump pickup line.  Since he said the reservoir overflowed I figured whatever oil was in the tranny must be pumping out of the tranny back into the reservoir while nothing was being drawn out of the reservoir.  But your absolutely right, if there's frozen water anywhere in the system, it's going to cause trouble.  It just struck me as a good spot for it to happen.

 

By the way, I might be mis-reading your first line but all the Meteors (1010 - 1012) were hydro.  The square bodied Glidamatic drive (1107-1110) tractors were still labeled as Panzers.



#11 Clint OFFLINE  

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Posted January 05, 2014 - 02:31 AM

I have a square bodied Panzer, wasn't sure of the model. You can see how rough it is in a previous post full of disheartening photos.  But hey, I only spent $30.00 on it!



#12 TGaffney OFFLINE  

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Posted January 06, 2014 - 11:53 PM

Thanks all for the input and info.  I followed the guidance on posting pictures - they are attached.

 

I drained the hydrostatic fluid yesterday - it was in the 40s so that helped - and refilled with transmission fluid.  The fuid in the system was much thicker than the transmission fluid I added.

 

The reservoir on my meteor was orignally on the firewall but was moved near the battery at some point - possibly when it was repowered due to space issues.

 

So - when I was investigating the engine and looking for where the idler pulley should be mounted - I noticed one and possibly two of the four motor mounts were broken - which is causing the motor to drift toward the transmission - thus loosening  the belt.  I believe this is a newer issue which has been contributing to the loss of power issue,  I used the tractor to grade and plow for an ice rink in November and all was fine then.  

 

The tractor was barely creeping - so I pushed down on the belt to the transmission with a board - and boy did the tractor have power and move like a tank. 

 

I'll investigate the motor mount issue in a few days (once it warms up a bit) and post what I find/figure out.

 

 

IMG_6834.JPG IMG_6835.JPG

 

 

 


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#13 Clint OFFLINE  

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Posted January 07, 2014 - 09:27 AM

I'm glad your making headway. Please keep us posted. Attach a video if you can once you get it up to snuff and running reliably. Thanks again!



#14 TGaffney OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2014 - 09:14 PM

Update on the Meteor.  I pulled the engine today (boy is that sucker heavy!) and sure enough I had two broken motor mount posts .  Both on the right side / transmission side. 

 

Not sure what could have caused this.  I'm wondering if plowing had anything to do with it?  Possibly not having the belt idler on the machine and having a lot of tension all the time between the crankshaft pulley and the transmission pulley caused strain/weakness?

 

Any ideas?

 

My plan is to get some grade 8 bolts,remount the engine, and hope for the best.



#15 Canawler OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2014 - 10:34 AM

You said the tractor was repowered.  What engine is it repowered with?  The original used four rubber mounts/insulators and the trans drive belt used a spring loaded tensioner to relieve the belt stress you're talking about.  I can post pics of my setup if it would help.


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