Jump to content

Garden Tractors and Parts on eBay



Photo
- - - - -

Fixing Up Old Blue 120


  • Please log in to reply
160 replies to this topic

#76 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 15, 2013 - 04:23 PM

The bottom wire coming off the PTO crankcase where the belt goes around.  Whatever that thing is called when the PTO switch goes on it starts a whirling. Anyway the two wires coming off of that. The bottom one is loose and it fell out. I need to add it to my project list to tighten the wire down so it doesn't fall off.

 

I think a completely new wiring job may be coming on this tractor. I don't know how I am going to trouble shoot why the battery gets killed every time I run it for like an hour.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 004.JPG


#77 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 15, 2013 - 04:30 PM

001.JPG

 

My Dad built this 18 x 18 inch mount on the back of the tractor and he also built a 18 x 18 cement box which sat right it. I wonder where that cement box went.  I sure could use it now. I dug around and the nearest thing I could come up with is a 60lb bag of cement which got wet and is solid as a rock and of course I haven't thrown it out, because I take my Dad's old ethic that you never throw anything out because you never know when you will use it or need it or take a part off it or who knows what (try explaining that to my wife)  "GET THIS JUNK OUT OF HERE"   Oh I need man space.   Ok anyway ... So I stuck that on there. Didn't do hardly anything. I think I need like 200 pounds.

A little more weight is nice in the snow. Especially backing up. The reverse gear has quite a bit of power.

 

 


  • KennyP said thank you

#78 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 15, 2013 - 04:35 PM

Here are some of the wiring shots. If anything jumps out at anybody as not appearing to be right let me know. I am totally tearing my hair out over what keeps killing this battery when the tractor is running.

 

TROUBLESHOOT #1  I know it is happening when the tractor is running.  It has been 0 deg. here for 3-4 days and it fired right up no problem several times in last few days. PLENTY of juice.  I drive it around for an hour snow blowing and turn it off and its dead.

 

Also should I be starting a new post with a new subject or is it ok to ramble on with this post forever?

 

002.JPG 006.JPG 007.JPG 009.JPG 013.JPG 013.JPG 014.JPG 015.JPG

016.JPG 016.JPG


Edited by OldBlue120, December 15, 2013 - 04:36 PM.


#79 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 15, 2013 - 04:38 PM

Here's a shot of mine, there's a single wire from the switch to the light, the light grounds to the dash. attachicon.gifuploadfromtaptalk1387068119980.jpg

Just realized I have a wire dangling under there not connected...I wonder what it's for as everything is working as it should?

 

What year is that tractor?



#80 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 15, 2013 - 04:43 PM

Does the generator charge the battery?   Put a voltmeter on the battery while it is running should be over 13 volts. 

 

...to find out if you have a short with the engine not running remove a battery terminal then touch it to the post look for a tiny spark if so there is a short somewhere.

 

Does the generator charge the battery? I have no idea. Should it? Are you asking me to check this? I think I will add voltmeter to my shopping list along with my battery charger. I have a voltmeter with a light and it if there is a current the light goes off. Will that work?  I am pretty sure the issue is when the tractor is running.


  • Chopperhed said thank you

#81 Chopperhed OFFLINE  

Chopperhed
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 20120
  • 1,852 Thanks
  • 1,071 posts
  • Location: Edmonton, Ab, Canada

Posted December 15, 2013 - 08:20 PM

Does the generator charge the battery? I have no idea. Should it? Are you asking me to check this? I think I will add voltmeter to my shopping list along with my battery charger. I have a voltmeter with a light and it if there is a current the light goes off. Will that work?  I am pretty sure the issue is when the tractor is running.


Yup, the generator is what charges the battery. A decent multimeter is critical for electrical work.
If you download the manual for the 10,12,14,16 hp tractors it has a troubleshooting chart that may help.
  • OldBlue120 said thank you

#82 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 15, 2013 - 08:35 PM

The motor generator is the gadget right under the gas tank in front of the engine? I thought that was the starter, see pic.010.JPG

 

 

 



#83 Walkinman1 OFFLINE  

Walkinman1
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 34918
  • 767 Thanks
  • 583 posts
  • Location: Lombard, IL

Posted December 15, 2013 - 11:37 PM

What year is that tractor?


1968

The motor generator is the gadget right under the gas tank in front of the engine? I thought that was the starter, see pic.http://gardentractortalk.com/forums/public/style_images/GTtalk/attachicon.gif 010.JPG


On these old style machines it starts the engine and charges the battery, it pulls double duty in that regard. Sounds like it's not charging and the ignition load is draining the battery (sort of like just leaving your key on in a car for hours)
  • OldBlue120 said thank you

#84 MH81 OFFLINE  

MH81

    Proud to be Deplorable

  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Contributor
  • Member No: 802
  • 29,963 Thanks
  • 29,757 posts

Posted December 16, 2013 - 12:48 AM

I have a couple units with what they call SG (starter/generator) setups. One will lose charge and its almost always the mount tabs for the regulator lose ground connection. Try disconnecting the battery, removing the black box and cleaning up the surfaces that bolt to the tractor. Those mounting surfaces must have ground or the regulator will not work.

BTW, the regulator looks like this.
image.jpg

#85 Oldford OFFLINE  

Oldford
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 50409
  • 1,134 Thanks
  • 786 posts
  • Location: n.e.

Posted December 16, 2013 - 08:56 AM

Does the generator charge the battery? I have no idea. Should it? Are you asking me to check this? I think I will add voltmeter to my shopping list along with my battery charger. I have a voltmeter with a light and it if there is a current the light goes off. Will that work?  I am pretty sure the issue is when the tractor is running.

 

The light bulb is sort of a "poor man's voltmeter" that helps with telling you if you're getting enough juice to light the bulb, anywhere from ~11~14 volts, unfortunately it won't tell you how many volts exactly which is what you need to know for troubleshooting.

 

You are now in the realm of "troubleshooting," key word being Trouble, and as Chopperhed said a voltmeter really helps a lot in this difficult arena.  Without knowing whether your battery is being charged while running you will just be guessing, perhaps pulling off parts and wires, maybe buying new parts blind, and not knowing exactly where the problem is.  Now that winter is here I would be trying to figure out as quickly and directly as possible where problems are and a voltmeter is the best way to eliminate electrical guesswork.

 

A cheap analog voltmeter, the kind with a needle, is probably under 20 bucks at a hardware store.  They are small and hard to read accurately, especially with the engine running and things bouncing around.

 

A cheap digital voltmeter will probably cost a little more at a place like Car Quest, etc,  but is much easier to read and will tell you exactly how many volts you are getting.  A good digital voltmeter costs even more but will pay for itself in terms of not letting you down when you really need it over the years.

 

For example, if you charge your battery on a charger then start the tractor, a light bulb touched to the battery terminals will glow bright, but you won't know exactly how many volts it has and if it is being charged by the generator or discharged by the ignition.

 

If you take a reading on the same freshly recharged battery with an analog meter, you will have to squint at the needle and try to guess which lines it is falling between while things are bouncing around.  12-13?  13-14?  And where is it reading when the engine isn't running?

 

Now put a digital voltmeter on the battery with the engine off.  If the battery is freshly charged it might give you a reading of 12.90 volts.  Now start the tractor and take a reading.  If it still says 12.90 volts or less, you know for sure that no current is reaching the battery.  You can then start backtracking the electrical circuit with the voltmeter leads, to determine exactly where the problem is.  For example, as MH81 shows, you can backtrack to the regulator to see if that is working.  Or all the way to the starter/generator terminals to see if it is generating in the first place.  If the battery reads 13 volts or higher while running, you know your charging system is in order.  If it reads over 14.5 then you have an overcharging issue but that doesn't sound like your problem.  Just trying to say, a decent voltmeter takes all the guesswork out of it.  It will also make it much easier to get help online if you can say what a voltmeter is telling you and where.  Just my .02, good luck

 

p.s.  just as an example, i bought a small Fluke digital voltmeter about 18 years ago, it was made in the US and cost around $100.  I have no idea what they cost any more as that meter will probably outlast me.  And not endorsing any brand as most stuff is now made cheaply overseas.  Before that I was going through $10 analog voltmeters about every two years, they were always hard to read and crapping out at the worst time.  Before that I had a light bulb on a wire which always had me guessing.  Not telling you what you should do, just telling what works for me.  good luck


  • OldBlue120 said thank you

#86 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 16, 2013 - 03:20 PM

The light bulb is sort of a "poor man's voltmeter" that helps with telling you if you're getting enough juice to light the bulb, anywhere from ~11~14 volts, unfortunately it won't tell you how many volts exactly which is what you need to know for troubleshooting.

 

You are now in the realm of "troubleshooting," key word being Trouble, and as Chopperhed said a voltmeter really helps a lot in this difficult arena.  Without knowing whether your battery is being charged while running you will just be guessing, perhaps pulling off parts and wires, maybe buying new parts blind, and not knowing exactly where the problem is.  Now that winter is here I would be trying to figure out as quickly and directly as possible where problems are and a voltmeter is the best way to eliminate electrical guesswork.

 

A cheap analog voltmeter, the kind with a needle, is probably under 20 bucks at a hardware store.  They are small and hard to read accurately, especially with the engine running and things bouncing around.

 

A cheap digital voltmeter will probably cost a little more at a place like Car Quest, etc,  but is much easier to read and will tell you exactly how many volts you are getting.  A good digital voltmeter costs even more but will pay for itself in terms of not letting you down when you really need it over the years.

 

For example, if you charge your battery on a charger then start the tractor, a light bulb touched to the battery terminals will glow bright, but you won't know exactly how many volts it has and if it is being charged by the generator or discharged by the ignition.

 

If you take a reading on the same freshly recharged battery with an analog meter, you will have to squint at the needle and try to guess which lines it is falling between while things are bouncing around.  12-13?  13-14?  And where is it reading when the engine isn't running?

 

Now put a digital voltmeter on the battery with the engine off.  If the battery is freshly charged it might give you a reading of 12.90 volts.  Now start the tractor and take a reading.  If it still says 12.90 volts or less, you know for sure that no current is reaching the battery.  You can then start backtracking the electrical circuit with the voltmeter leads, to determine exactly where the problem is.  For example, as MH81 shows, you can backtrack to the regulator to see if that is working.  Or all the way to the starter/generator terminals to see if it is generating in the first place.  If the battery reads 13 volts or higher while running, you know your charging system is in order.  If it reads over 14.5 then you have an overcharging issue but that doesn't sound like your problem.  Just trying to say, a decent voltmeter takes all the guesswork out of it.  It will also make it much easier to get help online if you can say what a voltmeter is telling you and where.  Just my .02, good luck

 

p.s.  just as an example, i bought a small Fluke digital voltmeter about 18 years ago, it was made in the US and cost around $100.  I have no idea what they cost any more as that meter will probably outlast me.  And not endorsing any brand as most stuff is now made cheaply overseas.  Before that I was going through $10 analog voltmeters about every two years, they were always hard to read and crapping out at the worst time.  Before that I had a light bulb on a wire which always had me guessing.  Not telling you what you should do, just telling what works for me.  good luck

 

I picked up a digital volt meter today. $35 bucks at car quest.  I will start trying to figure this out. Another snow storm coming tomorrow after noon so I better get on it.  Thank you for all of your help. 

So recap:

1. I should clean the ground and connections all up so the are clean and freshly "connected"

2. I should test the charged battery connected to tractor with engine off, then engine on.

3. Then how do you test voltage regulator? Stick the prongs of the voltmeter on each of the wire mounts?

Looking for voltage? What am I looking for exactly? Negative or no current or positive voltage. This is where I am so uneducated. For now anyway.

Again Thank you.



#87 Oldford OFFLINE  

Oldford
  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 50409
  • 1,134 Thanks
  • 786 posts
  • Location: n.e.

Posted December 16, 2013 - 08:00 PM

I'd start with the battery, note the voltage with engine off then running.  If your leads are long enough you can wedge the black one on the negative terminal then you'll have a good ground reading for everything you check.  If you're not getting more volts running then trace the positive circuit back from the battery.  Just take the red lead and start checking the various terminals back.  The regulator is one or 2 steps back and should be putting out 13.5 or whatever i believe on the "B+" post but it's been a while since i looked.  There will be other normal values for the various reg terminals and generator that someone else would know, or maybe a manual.  Check all switches in the line, on your way back to the generator, to make sure the blockage isn't there.  Yes check all grounds always good practice.  Who knows maybe a wire just came loose somewhere.


  • OldBlue120 said thank you

#88 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

HowardsMF155

    Tractorholic

  • Senior Member
  • Member No: 4243
  • 2,830 Thanks
  • 2,972 posts
  • Location: Central NC

Posted December 16, 2013 - 08:51 PM

You are getting a lot of good advice here, but I haven't seen anyone really say right out that it is your PTO and lights that are draining your battery, at least from what I am seeing here.  I strongly suspect you have a charging issue so concentrate your efforts there.  Got any friends who are good with electric?  Until you sort out the charging issue, you will need to manually charge your battery.  The bigger your battery, the longer it will go between charges, but I would put it on charge after every run anyway.  


  • OldBlue120 said thank you

#89 Rock farmer ONLINE  

Rock farmer
  • Senior Member
  • -GTt Supporter-
  • Member No: 10759
  • 1,195 Thanks
  • 1,230 posts
  • Location: York Maine

Posted December 16, 2013 - 09:41 PM

It sounds like you may be hooking the battery up backwards. Are you connecting the negative (-) terminal to ground? That's the battery cable that goes straight to the engine block. The positive terminal goes to the starter solenoid.

Garden tractor batteries come either negative terminal to the left or right. There is no difference in the terminals like there is in car batteries.

Joe
.
  • OldBlue120 said thank you

#90 OldBlue120 OFFLINE  

OldBlue120
  • Member
  • Member No: 50196
  • 94 Thanks
  • 95 posts
  • Location: Nobleboro, Maine

Posted December 16, 2013 - 09:43 PM

I'd start with the battery, note the voltage with engine off then running.  If your leads are long enough you can wedge the black one on the negative terminal then you'll have a good ground reading for everything you check.  If you're not getting more volts running then trace the positive circuit back from the battery.  Just take the red lead and start checking the various terminals back.  The regulator is one or 2 steps back and should be putting out 13.5 or whatever i believe on the "B+" post but it's been a while since i looked.  There will be other normal values for the various reg terminals and generator that someone else would know, or maybe a manual.  Check all switches in the line, on your way back to the generator, to make sure the blockage isn't there.  Yes check all grounds always good practice.  Who knows maybe a wire just came loose somewhere.

 

 

You are getting a lot of good advice here, but I haven't seen anyone really say right out that it is your PTO and lights that are draining your battery, at least from what I am seeing here.  I strongly suspect you have a charging issue so concentrate your efforts there.  Got any friends who are good with electric?  Until you sort out the charging issue, you will need to manually charge your battery.  The bigger your battery, the longer it will go between charges, but I would put it on charge after every run anyway.  

 

Well here is as far as I have gotten:

I hooked the battery up to the charger and it read 100% charged. But it won't start the tractor. It did the other day before I snow blow'd for an hour.  ok.  I removed the voltage regulator and cleaned it all up, all the terminals.   I took off the ground wire ( - ) and cleaned and filed the surface so that is all shiny and fresh and reconnected that.

So then I connected the battery. Ok I didn't know how to use my new digital voltmeter multi-tester (pic.1) 014.JPG But I guess I turn the thing to DCV 20 and put the black prong on the negative terminal and the red prong on the positive terminal and it should read 12.9 while running. 

 

Next I connected the battery on the tractor and doing nothing the ammeter read 0. When I turned the ignition and I tried to crank it over, it wouldn't start but pic 2 below 010.JPG showed negative amps while cranking.

Then I jump started the tractor and with it idling pict 3 below 013.JPG shows negative amperage as well. So something is draining the battery while it is running. Note in this scenario PTO and Lights were both off. Maybe I should have turned them on to see what happened.

 

I just went outside and just on the battery which is not connected to the tractor, I disconnected it, it read 11.27 and slowly went up to 11.51 then  I took it off and put it back on it and it went immediately to 11.51 and then climbed like 1 every 10 seconds. The battery may have lost some this afternoon while I had it running doing tests above.

 

That is the update for now.






Top