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#76 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 05:44 PM

New solenoid and checked it but will double check it



#77 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 06:27 PM

It looks good.



#78 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 06:38 PM

Another silly question, are you using an intermittent or continuous solenoid? Our machines use the intermittent NOT continuous kind.



#79 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 06:48 PM

I am using a intermittent solenoid.



#80 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 07:08 PM

Do you have a pic of the new solenoid?

 

Here's a little science behind the parts we're attempting to diagnose.

 

Solenoid:

 

http://mechatronics..../solenoids.html

 

Here's another source on diagnosing starting problems:

 

http://gardentractor...om/electric.htm

 

I found the following description of two kinds of solenoids. Not sure it will help us but it was interesting nonetheless.

 

"I know of two kinds of solenoids, both work the same way but do two different things. Both when actiI fvated create a magnetic field that move parts inside the solenoid. The activation is power being supplied to the solenoid by a key switch, power trim, etc.

The first kind of solenoid when activated transfers power from one side to the other. An example would be a old starter solenoid or power trim. You hit the switch it activates the solenoid and power can flow to the starter or the trim motor.

The second kind when activated moves an arm or something. An example would be a fuel shut off solenoid or valve. You hit the switch it activates the solenoid and a valve opens or closes.

A Shift-solenoid starter like on new cars does both. You hit the switch and starter drive gear is pushed out and power is transfer to spin the starter at the same time. The solenoid is part of the starter. A bendrix starter has a solenoid away from the starter and force of the spinning starter moves the gear out.

Most solenoids have two large post/terminals and one or two small ones. A single small one is the activation power. A second small one would be a ground. Some ground thru the mounting bolts and would have no second post. The two larger ones transfer power from one side to the other. A solenoid that moves an arm would not have any large posts and may have one or two small posts.

It is easier for me to show someone how it works, but I hope this helps.

Mike"

 

[source: http://forums.iboats...ork-180320.html]

 

Internals of my old solenoid:

 

http://gardentractor...actor/?p=223739

 

Here's another guy that had what sounds like the same problem you are having:

 

"This page describes replacement of the starter solenoid on my Onan DJE generator. Here's my post to SmokStak:

Further investigation showed that the problem was that the solenoid that attaches below the starter, is bad and does not close contact to run the starter.
 

The problem is that when I flip the start switch, it makes a loud CLICK as the solenoid pulls back and pushes the gear forward, the the starter usually does not engage.


My finding is as follows.

1. The contacts between positive and negative cable ends, and ther contacts on the genset, were corroded. I corrected that by taking them apart and applying sandpaper pads and using a copper conductive goo. It did not help.

2. When I engage the starter switch and the gear pulling solenoid pulls back, there is no voltage on the other contact that it is supposed to close when it pulls back (the one leading to the main starter). in other words, either the solenoid fails to pull back far enough, or the contact inside is bad.

I tried pulling it back by hand as far as I could and measuring ohms -- there is no difference.

 

SOLUTION: I replaced the solenoid. That fully cured the generator.

 

[Source: http://igor.chudov.c...tarter-Repair/]



#81 sacsr OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 07:14 PM

Titus that is a great find! Congrats!


Edited by sacsr, March 17, 2013 - 07:14 PM.


#82 machinist OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 07:23 PM

FWIF Dept.

 

What is called an intermittent solenoid here is what industrial applications actually call a solenoid, as in solenoid operated valve.   Another application was the old pinball machines that used solenoids to operate flippers.  

 

What we normally call a "starter solenoid" is actually a RELAY, in industrial controls terms.   A relay uses a small current to magnetically work a plunger, that in turn opens or closes heavier electrical contacts for a high current need, such as a starter.   Applications are numerous in electronics, to make use of tiny currents from electronic circuitry to control motors, lights, or other things too big for the electronics to handle. 

 

Before starter "solenoids" were used, cars and trucks had a HUGE switch on the floor of the vehicle (next to the gas pedal) you had to step on to operate the starter switch.   (Circa 1950 and before.)


Edited by machinist, March 17, 2013 - 07:24 PM.


#83 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 07:24 PM

I wouldn't put my life on this BUT....I just went out to the garage and tested the terminal with the wire going to the starter generator with the drive lever in gear (as if I was moving forward) and with it in the neutral position. When the drive lever was in gear the meter read ZERO yet when I had the tractor in neutral it should full voltage coming through to the starter generator.

 

I think you have a faulty neutral switch.



#84 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 17, 2013 - 07:30 PM

I was thinking that maybe  that is the issue. I mean, realistically what else would it be? If that's a safety switch, and it's faulty, then it could possibly be reading that its in F or R all the time and not completing the circuit. 

 

Tomorrow after work before the snow, I'll look at it and report back what I find. Is it just those two nuts to take off then it comes out? 

 

Thanks guys!



#85 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 18, 2013 - 09:46 AM

So what if I want to disable that? Would I just snip it and loop it back onto the solenoid?



#86 machinist OFFLINE  

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Posted March 18, 2013 - 09:49 AM

That would work, but I want the neutral safety switch on mine.  



#87 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 18, 2013 - 10:03 AM

I would put it back when it gets warmed and used more, but just to rule that out.



#88 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 18, 2013 - 10:12 AM

So what if I want to disable that? Would I just snip it and loop it back onto the solenoid?

 

Titus:

 

I found this on another site. Check out the red lettering below...

 


"If this is an electrical problem and not a fuel problem, the this is what you should be looking for.

1. A BLOWN FUSE - such an obvious little thing but one that gets overlooked all the time.

2. If the fuse is good, then perhaps you have a loose or broken wire somewhere. Trace all the wires, including the ones that go to the ammeter.

3. A blown ammeter. It happens. Vibration often kills ammeters. Short across the two ammeter terminals and see if you have powericon1.png to the keyswitch.

4. If the fuse is good, the ammeter checks out, then test the ignition switch to see if you have power going to the "B" terminal.

5. If you have power to the the "B" terminal, then turn the key on and put a test light or voltmeter between ground and the + terminal on the coil. If you don't have power at the coil terminal, then perhaps you have a bad ignition switch.

6 Check the - side of the coil. Does it have a wire on that side that goes to the points? If not, why not? There should be a condensor going to this lead also.

7 How about the points? Are they burnt? Are they improperly gapped? Maybe you need to replace the points and condensor.

8. The fact that you can put a jumper on the two big lugs of the start solenoid and get the start/gen unit to spin indicates that the battery is OK as well as the start part of the start/gen unit. Turn the keyswitch to the START position while having one lead for your test lamp/meter grounded and the other lead onto the small lug on the starter solenoid that has the wire from the key switch running to it. If you have 12 volts or the light lights up, then you either have a solenoid grounding problem and a defective solenoid.

9. Run a piece of wire from the other small terminal on the solenoid to a good ground on the engine. If the engine start/gen unit spins when you turn the key, then you have a problem with one of the two safety switches. The black wire leaving that small terminal on the solenoid goes to the PTO safety switch first. The PTO must be fully disengaged to operate this switch. If the PTO lever is not pulled all the way back, then the switch won't be closed.

10. There is also a second black wire that leaves the PTO switch and goes to a rivet in the center of the neutral safety switch. When the travel lever is in neutral, the wire finally finds ground and completes the circuit so that the solenoid will pull in."
 



#89 Titus ONLINE  

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Posted March 18, 2013 - 10:26 AM

The PTO is the knob towards the bottom of the steering column correct? That has to be pushed in all the way correct or pulled out? I don't see a PTO switch or another wire.



#90 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 18, 2013 - 11:17 AM

The PTO is the knob towards the bottom of the steering column correct? That has to be pushed in all the way correct or pulled out? I don't see a PTO switch or another wire.

 

Yes.

 

Knob pushed IN.....PTO disengaged.

Knob pulled OUT.....PTO engaged.

 

Given that the S/N on my 444 is 9652632 and the S/N on your 444 is 9652642, our machines do NOT have the PTO safety switch; to the best of my knowledge. You'll notice on page #16 of the parts manual that two different kinds of "LEVER"/"ROD" were used to move the PTO clutch.

 

"LEVER" (identified as #1 on page #16) was used on the 444 for tractors with S/N 9653291 and after.

"ROD" (identified as #15 on page #16) was used on the 444 for tractors with S/N prior to 9653291.

 

The "LEVER" incorporated the use of the PTO safety switch (STRIP as it is called in the manual on page #16....identified as #2). The "ROD" method for moving the clutch did not have a PTO safety switch attached....to the best of my knowledge.


Edited by Moosetales, March 18, 2013 - 11:18 AM.





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