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Ntm Massey Mf-14 (1974)


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#136 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 01, 2013 - 10:35 AM

Looks like you have a general handle on your problem.  The meter is indicating that there is NO charging going on.  I would start by locating the alternator wiring where it comes out from under the cooling tin,   Trace that wiring through the charging circuit, the voltage regulator, and it will probably terminate at the key switch.  I would unplug and re-insert every connector, looking at it for corrosion.  It may be that will be enough to fix your problem.  Or, it may lead to you finding something that isn't right, broken or melted wires, etc.   There may even be a fuse in that circuit, tracing the wires shouldn't be that hard and you may discover a burned fuse.   If that doesn't work, or show something that needs fixing, move on to electrical troubleshooting.  Before moving on, crank the engine, run it at a fast clip, and look at your amp meter.  Positive numbers will mean your battery circuit is working, 0 or lower means it still isn't charging.  ALSO, I forgot to ask, in the above picture, HOW MANY lights are running?  It has just occurred to me you may have too many lights running and that is why your system isn't able to charge while running.

     

     Have an electrical meter that can read both A/C volts and D/C volts.  There will be some sort of disconnect plug where the charging wires can be unplugged from the tractor.  With the engine running, set your meter to read A/C volts, then touch the test probes to the two wires that lead to the alternator (check your engine manual for likely color combinations.  If you have NO A/C voltage, you have an alternator issue.  If you have SOME A/C (greater than 12 volts, IMO, though the book may recommend 28 or so.) then your alternator is PROBABLY ok.   Reconnect the wiring there, then move to the Voltage Regulator, and unplug the wires from the input side of the regulator, and make sure you show the same A/C input to the voltage regulator.  I hear it is important for the regulator to be properly grounded to work correctly, so if you see any corrosion around where it mounts, pull it off, sand the mounting area and the mounting tab so they are clean and shiny,  Now you need to switch your meter to D/C so you can measure the voltage that comes from the voltage regulator.  If only ONE wire comes out of the voltage regulator, that will be your positive wire, which is where the red wire from your test probe goes. [EDIT: Forgot to say the black wire will be attached to the engine block or tractor frame, or the negative terminal of the battery.} Check for voltage with the engine running at a good clip.  You may find that regular battery voltage is present at this point due to the nature of electrical circuits.  I would suggest testing the voltage first at the battery with the engine off, make a note of that reading.  Be fairly accurate, not {12 volts}. but {12.5 volts} for instance.  Check again at the voltage regulator with the engine off and the switch off.  I would expect NO voltage under those conditions.  Turn the key switch to the "Run" position and check again at the voltage regulator output side for voltage.  I would expect to see a very close match to the battery voltage at this point.  If there is still NO voltage, I would suspect the switch or a connection somewhere between the battery and the voltage regulator.

 

 

     If you are seeing something close to battery voltage with the switch on, then it is time to start the engine and run it fast.  Check the voltage again at the voltage regulator and at the battery.  If the voltage regulator is working, you should see the battery voltage go up by at least a small amount, anywhere from half a volt to a full volt or more.  This is why I said be fairly accurate when you record your "resting" battery voltage.  If your alternator is OK, and your wiring is OK,  and there is STILL no voltage rise, then that would point to your voltage regulator being the problem.

 

Best of luck trouble shooting and let us know how it goes.  


Edited by HowardsMF155, March 01, 2013 - 10:44 AM.

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#137 daytime dave OFFLINE  

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Posted March 01, 2013 - 12:32 PM

Wow, I completely missed this one.  Congratulations on a great buy.  


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#138 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 01, 2013 - 12:44 PM

Looks like you have a general handle on your problem. The meter is indicating that there is NO charging going on. I would start by locating the alternator wiring where it comes out from under the cooling tin, Trace that wiring through the charging circuit, the voltage regulator, and it will probably terminate at the key switch. I would unplug and re-insert every connector, looking at it for corrosion. It may be that will be enough to fix your problem. Or, it may lead to you finding something that isn't right, broken or melted wires, etc. There may even be a fuse in that circuit, tracing the wires shouldn't be that hard and you may discover a burned fuse. If that doesn't work, or show something that needs fixing, move on to electrical troubleshooting. Before moving on, crank the engine, run it at a fast clip, and look at your amp meter. Positive numbers will mean your battery circuit is working, 0 or lower means it still isn't charging. ALSO, I forgot to ask, in the above picture, HOW MANY lights are running? It has just occurred to me you may have too many lights running and that is why your system isn't able to charge while running.

Have an electrical meter that can read both A/C volts and D/C volts. There will be some sort of disconnect plug where the charging wires can be unplugged from the tractor. With the engine running, set your meter to read A/C volts, then touch the test probes to the two wires that lead to the alternator (check your engine manual for likely color combinations. If you have NO A/C voltage, you have an alternator issue. If you have SOME A/C (greater than 12 volts, IMO, though the book may recommend 28 or so.) then your alternator is PROBABLY ok. Reconnect the wiring there, then move to the Voltage Regulator, and unplug the wires from the input side of the regulator, and make sure you show the same A/C input to the voltage regulator. I hear it is important for the regulator to be properly grounded to work correctly, so if you see any corrosion around where it mounts, pull it off, sand the mounting area and the mounting tab so they are clean and shiny, Now you need to switch your meter to D/C so you can measure the voltage that comes from the voltage regulator. If only ONE wire comes out of the voltage regulator, that will be your positive wire, which is where the red wire from your test probe goes. [EDIT: Forgot to say the black wire will be attached to the engine block or tractor frame, or the negative terminal of the battery.} Check for voltage with the engine running at a good clip. You may find that regular battery voltage is present at this point due to the nature of electrical circuits. I would suggest testing the voltage first at the battery with the engine off, make a note of that reading. Be fairly accurate, not {12 volts}. but {12.5 volts} for instance. Check again at the voltage regulator with the engine off and the switch off. I would expect NO voltage under those conditions. Turn the key switch to the "Run" position and check again at the voltage regulator output side for voltage. I would expect to see a very close match to the battery voltage at this point. If there is still NO voltage, I would suspect the switch or a connection somewhere between the battery and the voltage regulator.


If you are seeing something close to battery voltage with the switch on, then it is time to start the engine and run it fast. Check the voltage again at the voltage regulator and at the battery. If the voltage regulator is working, you should see the battery voltage go up by at least a small amount, anywhere from half a volt to a full volt or more. This is why I said be fairly accurate when you record your "resting" battery voltage. If your alternator is OK, and your wiring is OK, and there is STILL no voltage rise, then that would point to your voltage regulator being the problem.

Best of luck trouble shooting and let us know how it goes.


Wow! Great info. Can't wait to get home and start testing. Re: lights, I was running 2 headlights, 2 tail lights, one small strobe and 5 orange running lights. Thanks for the info.

#139 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 04, 2013 - 07:05 AM

So I was able to get a little trouble shooting done this weekend. In my search I found this:

 

2013-03-03 15.51.18.jpg

 

2013-03-03 15.51.33.jpg

 

Not only was there a ton of corrosion (rust) on the leads and contacts but the red wire from the ignition switch was capped off with a wire nut and not connected to the Rectifier Regulator. The two AC posts were rusty but cleaned up okay. The B+ post cleaned up okay but half of the end of the connector is eaten away. One side (and backside) of the Regulator were packed with grass so not a lot of heat was able to be dissipated.

 

2013-03-03 16.18.24.jpg

 

2013-03-03 16.18.30.jpg

 

2013-03-03 16.18.35.jpg

 

And the repair:

 

2013-03-04 06.31.25.jpg

 

After hooking things back up I fired her up and no change.

 

Questions:

 

1) If the tractor started and ran with the red lead from the ignition switch off, what function does it perform?

2) Based on appearance it would appear the Rectifier Regulator is shot. Do you concur?

 

Thanks. I'll continue troubleshooting tonight. My next mission is to take the ignition switch out and see if I can figure out where I might have a loose connection which makes turning the engine over a hit or miss proposition.

 



#140 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted March 04, 2013 - 07:41 AM

Internal corrosion in switches can really mess things up. Sometimes it's start, sometimes spark' but the intermittent nature (works one time, not the next) can be irritating.

That regulator has exceeded it's lifespan IMHO. If you get anything out of it again, it will always be suspect.

A volt meter or test light should show you what is what at the switch. Good luck.
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#141 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 04, 2013 - 03:27 PM

So I reached out to Bob's L&G Tractors regarding a new/used Rectifier Regulator and here's what they have:

 

n 001.JPG

 

n 002.JPG

 

The one on the right is new ($61.12 before discount) and the one on the left is off of a 1978 tractor ($40.00 before discount). They are not sure if the old stock is original or if it was replaced at some point and thus is newer than 1978. They both have the same bolt pattern so they'll fit no problem.

 

My question to you all, would you go old or new? I promise not to hold you to your answer I just don't know if these thing go out if even if they look descent or if they last for a 100 years if well maintained. Thanks for weighing in.

 

 

 



#142 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 04, 2013 - 04:31 PM

Go new.  Old electrical parts are simply asking for another failure.


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#143 MH81 ONLINE  

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Posted March 04, 2013 - 05:56 PM

I would probably go with the new one... But I see bad "New" circuit boards every week... IDK, guess I would rely heavily on Bob's suggestion.
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#144 IHCubGuy ONLINE  

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Posted March 04, 2013 - 07:10 PM

Without a doubt I would go new.  I agree with Howardsmf155, old electrical parts are just asking for trouble.  And for the price difference I wouldn't even consider it.  Definately good idea to trace the wires and check for breaks in them and I would test that regulator before you toss it just to be 100% sure it's the fault.


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#145 IamSherwood OFFLINE  

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Posted March 05, 2013 - 08:42 AM

I'd go with the new one if I where you. And, as said, go through all the wiring. Fix any suspect

crimps. Just for piece of mind, I'd take the extra time to solder, and heat shrinkwrap any joints.

Are the 5 extra lights, and flasher on a seperate switch?


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#146 IHCubGuy ONLINE  

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Posted March 05, 2013 - 07:31 PM

I'd go with the new one if I where you. And, as said, go through all the wiring. Fix any suspect

crimps. Just for piece of mind, I'd take the extra time to solder, and heat shrinkwrap any joints.

Are the 5 extra lights, and flasher on a seperate switch?

 

Will you got a point with unsoldered joints being BIG problems.  Our Farmall H that is modified for pulling was originally done with just crimped wires on it.  My dad was on the track pulling with it and the wire from the switch to the coil came off and shut the tractor off right in the middle of the track.  He was past the 75ft mark and could not go back to start over.  It was a good pull he had going to and he would have finished near the front of the pack but instead finished near the middle instead.

 

The wires were soldered before the next pull and its never happened again.


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#147 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 05, 2013 - 11:52 PM

I'd go with the new one if I where you. And, as said, go through all the wiring. Fix any suspect

crimps. Just for piece of mind, I'd take the extra time to solder, and heat shrinkwrap any joints.

Are the 5 extra lights, and flasher on a seperate switch?

 

They are on the same switch (ignition) as the headlights. I have the solder and shrink wrap and will definitely give it a try on the next joint I find that's come loose.



#148 Moosetales OFFLINE  

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 12:13 AM

Well I was able to sneak away to the garage this evening for a few minutes and while I was there I hooked up the wires to the regulator and at first she'd turn over but no spark. I reversed the wires and reconnected the red wire coming from the switch and she fired right up........AND to my pleasant surprise the voltage meter read on the positive side with and without the light on. So, a little solder to hold one of the wires on the regulator contact and I'll be back in business. Thanks for all your help in troubleshooting this problem. I still have the rest of the wiring harness to go through and fix issues I find but at least I know my regulator is doing it's job for the time being.

 

Here's a quick video of the voltage meter hard at work.

 


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#149 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted March 06, 2013 - 05:22 AM

Glad you got it figured out!


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#150 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

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Posted March 08, 2013 - 03:36 PM

EXCELLENT :thumbs: !!


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