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58' Bolens Versa-matic Ignition Trouble (kohler K161)


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#46 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 11:33 PM

I have an Old Steel 1 wheeled cultivator with a little 4hp k91on it that I have to get running this spring.It's been tucked away in the corner of the big barn for atleast 25 years.I used to use it when I was a little fella with my grandfather.

 

This thread will help when it comes time to dig her out.


Edited by EricFromPa, January 12, 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#47 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2013 - 12:32 AM

So there is no Compression release on the k161 with the 2 piece cam.Got ya.

 

Sorry, but you misunderstood me.

 

All the K141, K160, K161, & K181 engines had the ignition advance, but only certain spec numbers were equipped with ACR originally.

 

Replacement camshafts were equipped with ignition advance and ACR. 


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#48 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2013 - 04:30 PM

Ok, so today the muffler came off and was clean as can be so we can rule that out now....

Figured I'd give it a few pulls for the heck of it and no change, Just fires once in a while then thats it.

 

The numbers read:

 

Serial #446325

 

Spec# 28118E

 

So according to the info Bruce provided my engine is not ACR equipped so I'd say the 70 pounds compression I was getting is quite poor now and most likely a major factor......



#49 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 09:28 AM

Alright, Looks like I'm going in!

Will post pics of what I find inside tonight.....



#50 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 12:44 PM

Good luck Doc.I'm sure you can patch up her heart and get her kicking again.



#51 MailmAn OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 01:59 PM

Good luck!  Let us know what the prognosis is, Doc!  Hope you can figure it out and get her back running again!



#52 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 05:51 PM

Got the Engine out today and really didn't find anything wrong (was kind of hoping I'd find something that would point to the cause of the problem)

 

The Springs on the cam are still intact and the assembly appears to be working properly. I have never had one of these apart before so if any one see's something wrong with the advance ignition let me know :anyone:

 

The Crank and connecting rod are smooth as can be and the piston looks good as well. You can see the discoloration on the rod and piston which indicates there was blow by due to worn rings.

 

With 70 pounds of compression I'm just hoping a new set of rings will do the trick as I cant see anything else that would cause the problem I've been having.

Attached Thumbnails

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  • kohler 161 teardown 007.JPG
  • kohler 161 teardown 008.JPG
  • kohler 161 teardown 010.JPG
  • kohler 161 teardown 016.JPG
  • kohler 161 teardown 017.JPG

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#53 jim knutson OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 07:15 PM

it is hard to tell from a pic, however, the rings do look like they have quite a gap on them. like i said though, its hard to tell from pics, and without them "compressed" around the piston. best way to check is to take the rings off the piston, then slip them into the cylinder, use the piston to push them square into the bore, then use a feeler guage to check the gaps ( 1 at a time).



#54 8tyman8 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 07:30 PM

That one has me Stumped ! do the points have a pin like thing that rides on the crank ? i know with the Briggs engines they wear down


Edited by 8tyman8, January 14, 2013 - 07:32 PM.


#55 Bolens 1000 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 07:45 PM

The last time It ran it started right up then just randomly shut off while I was pushing snow, No warning Signs or anything.

I think ignition was partially a factor as it wasn't sparking too good when I initially tested it after the points were cleaned.....



#56 8tyman8 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 08:30 PM

The only thing no one mentioned was a governor is there any way that the governor shaft  spun ? or seized ? I think its some thing Small that was over looked



#57 EricFromPa ONLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 11:03 PM

Very slight wear on the piston skirt.That engine looks to be in great condition over all.If you take the top ring off of the piston and put it in the bore about 1" from the top,you can check the ring gap..007 minimal to .017 max If the gap is bigger than .017 then it's due for rings.

 

By the look of the rings on the piston I'm betting they are around .030 or more.

 

 

 

Does that Con Rod look like it's a .010 under rod to anyone else?They mark the .010 under rods with a single Dot like this.

Attached Thumbnails

  • $T2eC16FHJIIE9qTYI5OVBQyKnkgQwQ~~60_57.JPG

Edited by EricFromPa, January 14, 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#58 MailmAn OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 11:28 PM

Does that Con Rod look like it's a .010 under rod to anyone else?They mark the .010 under rods with a single Dot like this.

 

What do you mean by an "under rod"?  Is it lighter weight than a stock one do you mean or is it shorter than stock so the piston has more travel to it, like a stroker kit or something?


Edited by MailmAn, January 14, 2013 - 11:28 PM.


#59 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 06:29 AM

What do you mean by an "under rod"?  Is it lighter weight than a stock one do you mean or is it shorter than stock so the piston has more travel to it, like a stroker kit or something?

 

The length of the connecting rod does not add or subtract to the amount of piston travel.  .....That is controlled by the stroke length of the crankshaft.

 

The length of the connecting rod only determines where the piston travels in the cylinder. 


Edited by Bruce Dorsi, January 15, 2013 - 06:54 AM.


#60 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 06:53 AM

The ignition cam can be installed on the camshaft in two positions, but only one is the correct way. ....If you haven't separated the two parts, nothing will have changed.

 

The "triangle" on your camshaft gear should point at the mark on the ignition cam (which appears to be a "dimple" or punch mark in your photos). 

 

With the two cams mounted on the rod, can you rotate the ignition cam to see if the weights move freely, and the cam returns to its relaxed position?

 

As a general rule of thumb when fitting new piston rings, the end gap should be 003" per inch of cylinder bore.  ...Example: for a 3" bore, the ring end gap should be close to .009".   ......If the ring gaps on your existing rings are .015" or less, I would not bother changing them.

 

I don't see any sign of a compression release on your camshaft. 

 

....On engines that have  compression release, exhaust valve clearance can be set wrong if the tappet is raised by the ACR.  .....To avoid that, I would always adjust exhaust valve clearance when the intake valve is fully raised, and set intake valve clearance when the exhaust valve is fully raised. ....This insures that the tappet for the valve being clearanced is riding on the base circle of the cam.


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