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58' Bolens Versa-matic Ignition Trouble (kohler K161)


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#31 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 05:53 PM

I've got a stupid thought. The one thing that I see hasn't been touched is the muffler. If something is plugging the exhaust it would keep it from running. Maybe fire a few times and not keep going. Wonder if the bolts would come out of it without a lot of grief??

 

At this point I'm willing to try anything....



#32 Nato77 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 07:43 PM

You got a real head scratcher Doc. It to bad you had to wreck the old mag, cause I'd try putting it back on to rule the mag out. Don't you have a parts engine laying around? Have you tried different spark plugs? I had a bad plug once, had great spark with it out, but as soon as you would screw it in it wouldn't. Took alittle while to figure it out, but it fired right up after that.

A guy wants his equipment to work all the time, so he does maintance on the equipment. But sometimes it back fires and you think.....Shouldn't of tried to fix something that ain't broke! Been there done that.

Good luck Doc.



#33 grand OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 08:58 PM

Sorry to hear of your problems Brian. I am certainly no mechanical genius, but it sure sounds like a lot of our folks have been giving some great advice. I hope that you are able to solve the issues with your Versa-matic soon.



#34 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 09:12 AM

You got a real head scratcher Doc. It to bad you had to wreck the old mag, cause I'd try putting it back on to rule the mag out. Don't you have a parts engine laying around? Have you tried different spark plugs? I had a bad plug once, had great spark with it out, but as soon as you would screw it in it wouldn't. Took alittle while to figure it out, but it fired right up after that.

A guy wants his equipment to work all the time, so he does maintance on the equipment. But sometimes it back fires and you think.....Shouldn't of tried to fix something that ain't broke! Been there done that.

Good luck Doc.

 

 

Dont have any spare Kohlers laying around.... if it were a Wisconsin it would be a different story :smilewink:

 

 

I've done just about everything, replaced the plugs 2-3 times, Lapped and checked valve clearances, New Head gasket, new gaskets on the valve cover assembly, Fresh Gas, New Points/ Condensor, Took Carbon off the piston and head, cleaned the carb atleast 3 times.

 

 

 

The new condensor I put on  was a bit smaller than the original one... Would this have anything to do with it?

 

Does anyone know if these have compression release????

 

Who would have thought such a simple engine would cause so much trouble! :hitting_self_roller:



#35 jim knutson OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 10:18 AM

my repair manual says for K series:  "some engines are equipped with ACR ( automatic compression release )".....however it does not say which ones did or didnt..


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#36 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 11:49 AM

my repair manual says for K series:  "some engines are equipped with ACR ( automatic compression release )".....however it does not say which ones did or didnt..

 

The manual I have says all K series engines (Excluding the K91) Were equipped with compression release.

The manual has a revision date of 1973


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#37 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 12:13 PM

Does anyone know if these have compression release????

 

If the Spec # of your K161 has a suffix of  "H" or lower, the engine did not have Automatic Compression Release (ACR)  originally.   .....If the cam was replaced at a later date, all bets are off.  ....All K161's with a spec # ending in a letter higher than "H" were equipped with ACR.

 

The ACR consisted of a flyweight-activated pin on the exhaust lobe of the camshaft.  ....At cranking speed, the pin would lift the tappet slightly to lift the exhaust valve slightly off its seat.  .....Once sufficient rpm was reached, the flyweight would retract the pin, and the tappet would ride on the cam lobe.

 

The exhaust valve tappet was different for an ACR vs. non-ACR engine.

 

Whether or not the ACR is on your K-161, there is an ignition advance mechanism attached to the end of the camshaft.  ....This too is activated by a different flyweight attached to the cam.  ....It is possible this mechanism is not working properly, and is throwing the ignition out of time.

 

I also like Doug T's idea of a possible clogged muffler.  ....This could be easily tested by blowing some compressed air in the sparkplug hole, while the exhaust valve is open.  .....You could also try holding your hand over the muffler outlet while cranking the engine to see if you can feel air movement.


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#38 EricFromPa OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 03:19 PM

Could be a broken or dislodged spring on the cam for the compression release.Or it could be seized in the engaged position.

 

I had a problem with a 10hp kohler.The cam lobe for the points was worn out.Caused it to only fire when it felt like it.Easy fix without having to buy another cam was to tack a small nut onto the steel breaker pin and file it so it was flush to the bottom of the pin.

 

It basically made the pin wider on the end where it contacts the cam lobe.You have to remove the Cam to do this but they are very simple to remove.


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#39 EricFromPa OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 03:29 PM

Here's a K141 cam on ebay that will work in your k161.Looks to be in perfect condition.$28 shipped.

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item23239cb40a

 

It has good clear pics of the flyweights and spring.

 

 

There isn't an ignition advance on any K series Kohler engine.The points lobe is on the other end of the camshaft.(small end)


Edited by EricFromPa, January 12, 2013 - 03:35 PM.


#40 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 03:34 PM

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

 

I will first take a look at the muffler then move onto possibly the internal portions of the engine.....

If I have to go into the engine I probably should just go ahead and get some new rings for it while I'm at it.



#41 EricFromPa OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 03:49 PM

The fly weights were known to stick in the old K series engines.Some times all it takes is a good cleaning and reset of the spring.


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#42 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 04:10 PM

There isn't an ignition advance on any K series Kohler engine.The points lobe is on the other end of the camshaft.(small end)

 

I respectfully disagree !!!

 

The lobe to activate the ignition points is located on the ignition cam, which is a separate part attached to the camshaft on  K141, K160, K161, & K181 engines.

 

The Kohler part # for the ignition cam with magneto ignition was 230188.  ....Part # 260690 was for the ignition cam when battery ignition was installed.

 

 K141-K161-K181 engines with the ACR used exhaust tappet # 232777.  .....Non-ACR engines used #230013.


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#43 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 04:16 PM

Here's a K141 cam on ebay that will work in your k161.Looks to be in perfect condition.$28 shipped.

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item23239cb40a

 

It has good clear pics of the flyweights and spring.

 

That camshaft is from a K141S

 

The camshafts for the K141, K-160, K161, and K181 had the weights & springs on the opposite (outer) side of the cam gear.


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#44 EricFromPa OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 09:34 PM

Thought they were all the same.The manual that I have covers K91-K341A and I thought it was a good manual,but I guess not.I did manage to find a good manual to replace it though.

 

http://www.kohlereng...pdf/tp_2379.pdf

 

I see what you mean about spark advance now.It has a 2 piece cam shaft with the fly weights on the outside edge of the cam gear.

 

 

Personal Knowledge is better than any darn book lol.There's not much info available on Pre ACR engines is there?

 

So there is no Compression release on the k161 with the 2 piece cam.Got ya.

 

If your getting 75lbs compression and no ACR that seems a bit on the low side doesn't it?I think they call for 90lbs or better.


Edited by EricFromPa, January 12, 2013 - 09:41 PM.


#45 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 09:41 PM

 

If your getting 75lbs compression and no ACR that seems a bit on the low side doesn't it?

 

Yeah 75 is pretty low with no ACR

Ideally you want to see between 110-120 lbs






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