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58' Bolens Versa-matic Ignition Trouble (kohler K161)


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#16 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 08, 2013 - 09:45 PM





Tecumseh P/N 30650A,

I'm wondering if that was a typo and supposed to be 30560A?

Nothing comes up for the number you quoted but I did find a 30560A that was used on Early Tecumseh/ Clinton



#17 DougT ONLINE  

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Posted January 08, 2013 - 10:49 PM

I would say it probably was. I copied and pasted it from the post.



#18 DougT ONLINE  

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Posted January 08, 2013 - 11:01 PM

I found another post about it.

 

icon1.gifKohler K161 7hp Replacement Coil Found
For those needing an ignition coil, here is the maybe the best deal around.

NAPA Auto Parts Store:
Part Number 7-01612
Replaces Tecumseh 30560a;Phelon 06240
$22.00
Probably could order their off website too.

The only thing I needed to do was extend wire to the points. Everything else was an exact fit.

Hope this helps someone in the future!

Thanks for all the help you've given me!

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#19 wilberj OFFLINE  

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Posted January 08, 2013 - 11:48 PM

I found another post about it.

 

icon1.gifKohler K161 7hp Replacement Coil Found
For those needing an ignition coil, here is the maybe the best deal around.

NAPA Auto Parts Store:
Part Number 7-01612
Replaces Tecumseh 30560a;Phelon 06240
$22.00
Probably could order their off website too.

The only thing I needed to do was extend wire to the points. Everything else was an exact fit.

Hope this helps someone in the future!

Thanks for all the help you've given me!

 

I have got one them for my dad's Ride A Matic.



#20 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2013 - 04:54 PM

I made some progress today.

Replaced the points& condenser , Reinstalled the valves and got the old magneto out so I could cut it in half to get the piece I needed.

 

I Installed the replacement magneto and turning the flywheel by hand I am now getting a nice big blue spark.

Will post pics and possibly a video tomorrow if I can get her to run......



#21 MailmAn OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2013 - 10:21 AM

Congrats on the (hopefully) simple-ish fix then!  Hope it works for you and runs like a champ!



#22 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2013 - 04:39 PM

Well, the dilemma continues! :wallbanging:

 

Put everything back together today and went to give her a pull and nothing! Gave it 2-3 more pulls and it fired once then that was it.

Pulled the plug out and cleaned it, still nothing, Put in a new plug and it fired once or twice but wouldnt run!

Sprayed some carb cleaner down the sparkplug hole and it fired once but that was it. Pulled the carb off and cleaned that out again and still nothing! :mad2:

 

Everything has been replaced such as a rebuilt carb, new points/condensor, coil, has great compression, new headgasket.

 

The only thing I can think of is the engine somehow got out of time but when it tried to fire up it didnt sound like it was out of time. I'm going to rule out fuel issue as it should have fired up for a few seconds atleast when I sprayed the carb cleaner down the sparkplug hole....

I'm getting a nice blue snappy Spark but the thing just wont run.

 

 

Anyone have any suggestions/ comments on this? I'm Stumped on this one!

 

 

Here's a video I made of how it sounded when it fired, you can hear it at 19 seconds in the video.....

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • more ign problems 001.JPG
  • more ign problems 005.JPG
  • more ign problems 006.JPG


#23 jim knutson OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2013 - 08:00 PM

try checking the contacts on the points...maybe they are burned, like when you leave a key on with a power source feeding them( like older vehicles with points). maybe the new set-up is hot enough to burn the contacts..



#24 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 12:07 AM

Back to the basics:

 

Good, clean, fuel in tank?  .....Water won't burn! 

 

Gas flow into carburetor?  ..... Gas shut-off open? ....Gas flows when carb bowl is loosened?

 

Spark will jump a 1/4" gap?

 

Apply full choke -- crank engine a few times. ----Is spark plug wet ?  ....If yes, ignition, or plug, or fuel is bad.

                                                                                                           ....If no, fuel is not being drawn into cylinder.

 

Vacuum leak at intake gaskets? .....Compression low due to valves not seating properly and/or incorrect valve clearances?

 

Try squirting a little oil into cylinder to create a better seal at the piston rings.  .....A dry cylinder wall can prevent starting in some cases, but too much oil can foul the plug.

 

There is always a reason.  ....Sometimes it just takes longer to find the answer.


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#25 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 08:56 AM

Back to the basics:

 

Good, clean, fuel in tank?  .....Water won't burn! 

 

Gas flow into carburetor?  ..... Gas shut-off open? ....Gas flows when carb bowl is loosened?

 

Cleaned the tank and put in new fuel shutoff & Filter, Getting good flow to the carb.

 

Spark will jump a 1/4" gap?

 

Will check that today....

 

 

Apply full choke -- crank engine a few times. ----Is spark plug wet ?  ....If yes, ignition, or plug, or fuel is bad.

                                                                                                           ....If no, fuel is not being drawn into cylinder.

 

Plug gets wet after a few pulls.....

 

Vacuum leak at intake gaskets? .....Compression low due to valves not seating properly and/or incorrect valve clearances?

 

Replaced all those and lapped the valves but will check again...

 

 

Try squirting a little oil into cylinder to create a better seal at the piston rings.  .....A dry cylinder wall can prevent starting in some cases, but too much oil can foul the plug.

 

There is always a reason.  ....Sometimes it just takes longer to find the answer.



#26 Bruce Dorsi OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 10:01 AM

If the plug gets wet while cranking with the choke on, then compression appears adequate, temporarily ruling out a problem with valves, gaskets, piston ring seal, etc. ....It also appears the carb is doing its job.

 

If that is really gas, not water, getting into the cylinder, then ignition is the most likely culprit.  .....Contrary to popular belief, just because a spark may be blue does not mean it is good.  ....The spark should have enough intensity to jump a 1/4" gap in open air. 

 

Once a spark plug becomes flooded or fouled, the spark may be lost at the tip. .....Using a propane torch or compressed air to dry the plug and remove deposits may fix that problem.

 

It takes more (electrical) energy to jump the plug gap under compression, than when the plug is not installed.  ....That is why spark intensity must be strong.

 

Lastly, there is the issue of timing.  .....The valve timing would not have changed unless the engine were apart or the cam broke, so we can temporarily rule that out.  ......Ignition timing is affected by point gap.


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#27 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 10:51 AM

If the plug gets wet while cranking with the choke on, then compression appears adequate, temporarily ruling out a problem with valves, gaskets, piston ring seal, etc. ....It also appears the carb is doing its job.

 

Its got decent compression, I put my finger over the sparkplug hole and gave it a pull and I had a hard time trying to keep the hole closed.

If that is really gas, not water, getting into the cylinder, then ignition is the most likely culprit.  .....Contrary to popular belief, just because a spark may be blue does not mean it is good.  ....The spark should have enough intensity to jump a 1/4" gap in open air. 

 

I'll drain the tank and put fresh gas in & test the spark .....

 

 

Once a spark plug becomes flooded or fouled, the spark may be lost at the tip. .....Using a propane torch or compressed air to dry the plug and remove deposits may fix that problem.

 

It takes more (electrical) energy to jump the plug gap under compression, than when the plug is not installed.  ....That is why spark intensity must be strong.

 

Lastly, there is the issue of timing.  .....The valve timing would not have changed unless the engine were apart or the cam broke, so we can temporarily rule that out.  ......Ignition timing is affected by point gap.

 

 

I'll report back what I find later tonight....

Thanks for the help Bruce!



#28 Bolens 1000 ONLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 04:56 PM

Todays Update:

 

Still No change :wallbanging: :wallbanging: :mad2:

 

 

-Spark was able to jump a 1/4'' gap with no problems (Still made a nice snapping spark)

 

-Valve Clearances are perfect

 

-It fired a few times then that was it, there was one time where it fired 4-5 times in a row and I thought she was going to take off but no!

 

-I read in the manual that the 161 is equipped with an automatic compression release? Anyone know if this is true?

Checked the compression and am getting around 75 pounds which seems great if it indeed has the compression release.

 

 

Other than that I am at a loss on this one!



#29 MailmAn OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 05:30 PM

I know it is too late now to test a bad part, but what was the power output from the old (stock) magneto, if you know?  IDK what you replaced the magneto with, if it was a direct replacement part that was identical or if it was replaced with a different magneto that just fit in the same spot?  It could be that the replacement magneto isn't delivering the same power output as the stock ignition and as Bruce had indicated that it is not delivering enough spark for the engine to run.  I'm not saying that is definitely the case, but it is just another perspective on the problem.  The other thing I would try is a different spark plug and a new plug wire, just to rule them out (if you haven't already done that).  Sometimes an old plug wire can be cracked and moisture gets in there and affects the spark quality.  Also, maybe the wires going to the magneto could be questionable?  Not sure without being there...  Otherwise, if you are sure it is getting the proper spark, like Bruce had mentioned, if the points aren't set right and the timing is off, that will make it not run as well.

 

Besides that, if it ends up not being an ignition problem, then it has to be a fuel mixture problem if it is still not running.  Was it running fine before the magneto went?  Could it possibly have a carb issue?  Was the carb rebuilt at all recently?  Maybe it is getting some fuel but not enough?  Could a jet be partially clogged?  Could the carb float or needle/seat be bad?  Could the intake valve not be opening or closing properly?  Are there any vacuum leaks in the engine?  Is the carb/engine flooded maybe?  It could be getting too much gas just as well as not enough.  You did say the plug was wet, right?

 

Hope whatever it is that you can get to the bottom of it soon (before it drives you crazy...  :loosing_it: )  Too bad it wasn't as quick a fix as you were thinking...



#30 DougT ONLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 05:40 PM

I've got a stupid thought. The one thing that I see hasn't been touched is the muffler. If something is plugging the exhaust it would keep it from running. Maybe fire a few times and not keep going. Wonder if the bolts would come out of it without a lot of grief??






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