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Trans Conversion In 416s?


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#46 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 10:50 PM

Or bore the holes out slightly and put a sleeve between the shaft and the frame.  

This has been a very interesting thread, and I wish I could help, but I've never seen this type drive system before.  One thing I notice in reading through is that however power is being transfered to the fwd/rvs mechanism, it apparently is tight enough to do the job properly in reverse.  Does this drive belt then become loose when the trans is shifted to forward?  Also, check and make sure the belts are properly threaded through whatever pulleys they need to go through.  

 

I'll throw this out there.  The Massey drives I am familiar with NEED to have the engine belt guard on in order to correctly deform the main drive belt so that it stops gripping the pulley.  BUT, you have to remove the guards in order to properly adjust the clutch and brake linkages.  So, many people make the adjustments, go on a test drive, and then discover that now things seem even WORSE than before the adjustment was made.  Is it possible there is some seemingly minor item like this that could account for the issues here.



#47 B10Dave OFFLINE  

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Posted January 18, 2013 - 12:04 AM

Makeitfit.. I have found this thread to be very interesting.I hope you can figure out your shuttle problem and get the 400 series going to your satisfaction. Having said that i will say that you now know why my 20 something in number collection of AC and Simplicity tractors does not contain any 300 or 400 series AC tractors and the only shuttle tractors I have owned have been parted out and disposed of. Phil likes the shuttle mostly because he had to master it where he lives as AC/Simplicity is almost non existant in his area and the tractor he calls Sweet Allis was almost forced upon him by the circumstances of it's aquisition. Personally for my own peace of mind and to limit the frustration factor you will only find 3 spd. and hydro tractors in my collection. I have found that if it has more than a single belt it will give you more grief than it is worth.For this reason I won't even own a so called 6spd. because it needs a second belt to give you the extra 3 speeds. And I am not as happy with my B112 Variable as I am with my B110 3spd. My mantra is "KISS" keep it simple stupid. when it comes to tractor drivetrains. Just my 2CTS. worth. As I stated at the start of my rant, I do hope you solve your problems and come to love your 400 series AC.  Dave.



#48 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 18, 2013 - 01:31 AM

I was more or less thinking that it would be easier just turning a few bolts and swapping in another rear frame, even if I have to tear another one apart first, weld up and redrill the holes, and swap the frame plates into the 416S all at one time.



Besides, I'd rather the parts machines sit on a shelf in the garage in pieces than having them stacked all around the yard. They basically have to come appart anyhow.

 

The holes aren't worn even enough to just support from one side, they need to be filled and redrilled. I'm surprised those points don't have a means of lubrication. Just metal on metal friction, no bushing or bearing at all. Its just a 5/8" hole drilled in the frame that supports the side to side shaft. I guess they figured the clutch pedal wouldn't induce that much wear?
The linkage thats doing the most harm is the small rod between the jack shaft and the idler pulley arm, those holes are double in size in all directions and the pivot points are worn inside each arm. I could also press a bronze bushing into the lever arm and redrill the hole, that would save sacrificing the last somewhat complete 410S for parts.



#49 sammiefish OFFLINE  

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Posted February 06, 2013 - 10:41 PM

any news on this??  any luck?



#50 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted February 07, 2013 - 02:01 AM

So far I've not had enough decent weather to fool with it, luckily we haven't had any snow either.

I guess if we do I'll be forced to toss on a wider belt and a stronger spring until I get some better weather.
Right now its covered up with a tarp outback.
I'm thinking that if I redo the frame holes I'll set it up to take bearings and never have to deal with it again. I'll find a bearing with the correct ID, then find a piece of pipe with the correct ID to press the bearings into, then make a weld on flange which I can bolt to the frame to hold the sealed bearings. Its overkill but it'll save complete dissassembly.



#51 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted April 18, 2013 - 11:18 PM

I finally got back to the 416S this week.

I've tried everything, no luck, it still slips under load in all but first gear. It'll slip with me off the tractor and seat tilted up watching the belts, its slipping at the BGB.
The bottom line is that the belt never gets tight enough. I can lift the belt off the pulley with the clutch out by hand, even with a super duty spring installed on the lever arm on the left side.

I replaced both side plates with two that have no wear, found a super clean tensioner pulley and arm, as well as all the linkage and rods.

The BGB pulley is good, plus I've swapped in two others and they all do the same.
I see two issues, the belt, (I've got 7 different brand belts here now), is too narrow and don't match the bevel of the pulleys and it bottoms out in all pulleys.

Something else I found out is that the pulleys on a 3410S are no the same as those on a 410/416S, the BGB pulley diameter is different and the AC pulleys are definitely wider. I've got 7 AC 410/416S parts machines here now, I bought up every one I found over the winter at auctions, one looks almost new but its smashed across the front end as if it either got hit by a car or had a huge tree fall on it.
For $35 at auction I couldn't loose if only for its two Carlisle rear ag tires.

 

I also picked up a pair of 3410S machines thinking they share parts but I think this is where things get screwy here.

The OEM belt is listed as a 4L530, I bought 4, have several of the parts machines. The issue I see is that this belt fits and works fine on the 3410S, but its too long and too narrow on the 410/416S models? The pulleys are wide enough on the AC machines that even a new 1/2" wide 4L530 will hit the bottom of the sheave with one side of the belt not even touching. I have one machine that had an old, badly rotted belt on it that fits the pulleys, but no one seems to be able to figure out what it is. Its marked only A51 Super on it. It fits the pulleys like a glove but it only lasted one row with the plow before it snapped.

Size wise it measures 0.51" wide vs the 4L530 which measures only 0.46" wide measuring the widest one in the bunch here.

The A51 is also thinner, at 0.33" vs .0.36" for the 4L530 that it calls for.

Could the listing simply be wrong? I don't have a local dealer here, they're only going by the parts list and it calls out the same parts for both the AC and the Simplicity machines but their obviously different.

 

With the 4L530 belt in place, the tensioner is 3/16" from being maxed out on the linkage, its beyond its mechanical advantage to apply any tension. This also puts very little belt wrap on the BGB pulley, about 1/3rd of the pulley is in contact with the belt.

 

What led me to find this was actually putting a pipe on the tension lever where the spring goes and and applying pressure with the machine in gear against a tree, and I could not apply enough  tension to stop the belt from slipping, I then removed the link that applies tension to the tensioner pulley and hung a huge spring on the arm, so much so I needed a bar to set the spring, but it still slipped. Only the wider belt would hold and make the wheels spin, but it broke.
I've been to NAPA, and 5 area belt/bearing suppliers with no luck.

NAPA, Gates, Dayco, all measure a good bit under 1/2" wide, with a different angle to the sides of the belt. They look more like the shape of a standard automotive belt not a power drive type belt.

 

 

See pics here:

The belt on the left is an original belt off a Simplicity 3410S, the one on the right came from the one low hours 410S I bought for parts.

http://oi45.tinypic.com/2jg5wjt.jpg

http://oi45.tinypic.com/sgk3sw.jpg



#52 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted April 19, 2013 - 04:58 PM

I tried one more belt today, a 1/2x52" belt which is the smallest I can put on it and still be able to release the clutch.

Its exactly 1/2" wide. Its better but it still slips in 4th against a hard pull. However, with the 52" belt, I can't seem to stop the creep in forward when the lever is in the center. The clutch/brake operation is short, maybe 4" travel total vs. 8" with the 53" belt.

I tried a 5/8" belt but that won't clear the guards or stay on the idler pulley The 52" belt actually measured 52 3/8", while the 53" belts all measured 53 5/8" total or more after being used.

I'm up against two issues, first the belt is narrow in the pulleys and bottoming out, second, with the 53" belt, there's not enough wrap around the BGB pulley for good grip. I think the only reason the 52" belt works is that its got another inch or so of wrap around the BGB pulley.

 

With the 52" belt, and the clutch adjusted to about 1/2" clearance on the clutch rod, 1/8" on the detent rod spring stop, and 1/8" at the brake shoe, with the brake band tightened up one full turn past an easy fit it creeps forward almost immediately after unlocking from the reverse stop on the lever. Sometimes when I toggle the shuttle lever back and forth while holding the brake I can lessen how much it creeps forward.

I get this same problem on three of the machines I've got here. It seems like the adjustment on the spring and collar on the rod with the neutral detent keeps changing.

The original 416S has the newest parts on it now, there is no play in any rods or shafts and all the friction parts are in good shape.
What I get now with the 52" belt is belt chatter and squealing as I engage the clutch with the pedal, or when first moving forward after shifting into high gear. With the 53" belts, it just slipped and made no noise, now with the rubber faced, wider belt the belt jumps and chatters on the BGB pulley. If I try to pull anything in high gear, even a wagon, the BGB pulley slips, but with the shorter belt, it screams and chirps loudly.

The 1/2" x 52" belt fits on tight, its not loose like the 53" belts were. The idler is at a better angle as well.

 

I also tried a 50" belt, which had to be rimmed on without the idler on at all, the belt fit like a piano string yet still slipped in high gear the same way. Once the machine is moving, high gear seems fine but its getting rolling but any resistance and the belt will slip and scream. The kevlar belts didn't make noise they just slipped. This belt is made by Mitsuboshi and came from a local industrial supplier. It was the only belt I could find that wasn't under 1/2" wide.

Its still not has wide as the one original belt I had tried and broke.

 

Something I notice on this tractor is that low gear is way, way low, and high gear is way too fast, fast enough to worry about being safe, even at half throttle.

When the belt slips, it'll slip at idle, it don't need any power to slip. With the machine chained to a stump by the rear hitch, with no rider on it, it'll slip the belt in 3rd and 4th gear before spinning the back tires on a gravel driveway. The rear tires are filled with about 50lbs of washer fluid and its still got the snow plow mounted up. No other weight on the tractor. In my opinion it should with no doubt just sit there and spin its tires, not slip the belt. I can watch the belt compress and get sucked down into the BGB pulley when it slips, its not like its not up against some force, the belt just don't handle it. The BGB pulley is off super clean 410S I bought for parts. I see no signs of wear on any of these pulleys.

If I were using it to cut grass, I'd probably never notice it slip, but since all this does is push snow and plow a garden, its working all out all the time.



#53 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2014 - 12:49 AM

After almost a year of trying everything under the sun and even running a shorter belt to try and stop slippage, I think I finally figured out what's up with this thing. I used the 416 all winter to plow snow, running a 52" long belt, (A50 according the sleeve), I got this and the last few belts from a local bearing supply, as well as two from tractor supply. After about half the winter of plowing snow, the first 52" belt snapped, so i went and got another, knowing that if I put on the correct belt, it wouldn't move any snow.

I finished the winter with the second 52" A50 belt. What I couldn't help but notice is that all of the belts were basically bottoming in the pulleys, the 'V' profile was as deep as it was wide. I got the same style belt from both the local small engine dealer, the industrial bearing dealer, and from tractor supply.
 

Last month I stumbed across a free 3410S, with a deck and Brinly plow attached. The guy had it on CL for $100 OBO. It was less than a mile from here. I went there, it fired right up, ran fine and pulled like a horse, I dropped the plow into what was basically overgrown field and it ripped right through in any gear, no slippage. I bought the 3410S on the spot. While loading the thing, the owner handed me a bundle of belts, manuals, and several spare wheels and tires. I told him about the 416S I've got and all the issues and he said that these require what is called a Classic profile belt, not a fractional HP belt as they sell in tractor supply. He pointed out that the A51 belt he used, and the two spares he gave me with the tractor are wider and not as deep as the A51 belts bought for modern machines. When I got home, the first thing I did was remove the shorter belt from the 416S and installed one of the A51 belts that came with the 3410S, and it now pulls like it should, I can't make it slip.

All of the belts I had before were marked the exact same way, all were marked A51 or 4L530, all were fabric rapped belts but all were a deeper V shaped belt. The belts he gave me is marked the same way, its unbranded, made in China, but it works.

Not one of the local dealers ever mentioned whether I needed a Classic profile or anything else. The belts I was getting were all fractional hp, as are the belts at TSC, The seller of the 3410S explained that 'fractional hp belts are meant only for less than 1hp, and light loads. Classic profile belts are meant for heavy, constant loads and high hp applications. Why on earth would both types of belts be labeled the same? I even ordered a belt from Agco, a tractor dealer about an hour away and the belt they gave me as a factory replacement was a generic replacement in a different sleeve.

After having both belts side by side, the profile difference is pretty obvious.

I attached a few pics comparing the original belt with the factory part number on it, the Classic profile belt also marked A51, and a Kevlar A51/4l530K belt from Tractor Supply. The factory belt and the Kevlar TSC belt slip bad, both are glazed and bottom in the pulleys. The Classic Power Drive belt does not and its added width keeps it riding high in the pulley groove. Even with minimal tension, this belt does not slip. With this belt, with the weighted tires and with the tractor chained low to a tree, the sidewalls of the rear tires wrinkle and flex before the tires even start to slip. With all the other belts I've tried, the belt slipped even when on soft dirt. I have little doubt now with this belt I'd do damage to the tractor or axles long before the belt slipped. The guy said he got the belts from a Case tractor dealer. The outer layer of the 'Classsic' belt is rubbery to the touch, it grips the pulleys, where as the fractional HP belt is bare cloth and slick.

 

A51 Belt comparison.JPG A51  Belt comparison..JPG


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#54 HowardsMF155 OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2014 - 07:10 AM

Thanks for wrapping this up for us.  Glad you found out what it was, now you just have to make sure that you can get a supply of the Classic belts when you need them.



#55 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2014 - 10:41 AM

Yeap! Belts riding in the bottom of the sheave won't pull squat and overheat and get worse the more you use them. I think the original belts were HA profile.

#56 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2014 - 08:49 PM

Thanks for the info on the classic belts. That may explain why the standard size belts I bought for my 1855 didnt work as good as the factory belts.



#57 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted April 10, 2014 - 09:10 PM

The big problem is that the parts counter guys don't seem to know the difference between a fractional hp belt and a classic profile Hd belt, not a single shop here stocks anything but fractional hp, and I'd be willing to bet that even the dealers don't know the difference.

Knowing now that there's a difference, I doubt if any of the oem replacement belts for other brands that they sell are classic or power drive belts either.

 

One very reputable bearing shop here that stocks belts told me there's no difference, "an A51 is an A51" I was told.

What it boils down to and it makes perfect sense to me, that a FRACTIONAL HP BELT IS ONLY FOR APPLICATIONS WHERE THE HP RATINGS ARE A FRACTION OF A HP.

 

I also could fine no markings on any of these belts as to what profile they are or what rating they have.






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