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Trans Conversion In 416s?


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#31 achomesteader OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 06:17 AM

Check all bolts attaching transmission and BGB to frame side plates for tightness. Also check bolts attaching front of BGB to front frame and bolts attaching frame side plates to front frame. I believe you will probably find bolts loose allowing the transmission to pivot, thus throwing the shuttle out of adjustment. Tighten all bolts and readjust.


Edited by achomesteader, January 15, 2013 - 06:28 AM.


#32 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 10:56 AM

I've gone over all the bolts several times, none have ever been loose. I went there almost right away when things kept moving. I think what's going on is that the belt keeps stretching or wearing from slipping. What I can't believe though is how hard it pulls in reverse yet how easy it slips in forward. In reverse, it NEVER slips, in forward its only usable in low gear, and even then if it hits something solid it sits there and starts slipping the BGB belt.


I have little doubt that there's not enough tension on the main belt. I tried a shorter belt this morning but still no change, there's still not enough tension on it. For what ever reason the linkage from where the spring is to the clutch idler arm loses something. On the parts tractor, the tensioner is tight, you really have to pull at it to get it away from the belt, yet on the 416S I can push it away with my thumb. This doesn't change even when swapping springs.

I'm thinking it may need a spring on the right side, directly on the tensioner but when I ad one there the clutch pedal gets so stiff it feels like something is going to snap. I can't see any worn points when comparing the two either.

I think what I need to do is swap the whole mess over, all the linkage and idler from the parts tractor onto the 416S and see what happens then. I also noticed that the new belts are deeper than the old belts. The orignal belts are shallow, wider than they are deep, the new belts are as deep as they are wide. I've gone to two bearing dealers, NAPA, and two tractor dealers, most have china made belts, only one had a Goodyear belt but that was a cogged type belt. All were listed as fractional HP belts.

I really don't like how low in the groove the belts ride, I at first figured the pulleys were worn but 4 of them can't all be worn the same.



#33 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 12:09 PM

You are positive it is slipping at the BGB and not at the forward clutch belt? Is the forward belt now tight in forward?

Greg's idea about the bolts makes some sense but I would think that driving in reverse would bring the BGB and top of transmission closed together which would loosen the belt and froward would have the opposite effect of stretching the distance between the the BGB and transmission shafts. However it could be stretching the clutch linkage pulling the main clutch idler off the belt. You have me totally baffled as your symptoms are not classic issues with shuttle mechanisms. Usually clutch issues will still allow the tractor to move in all gears unless under heavy loads even to the point that if the guards aren't set right the tractor can keep moving with the clutch depressed even against a fully applied brake. What your are experiencing runs counter to anything I have ever seen.

Edited by skunkhome, January 15, 2013 - 10:35 PM.


#34 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 02:28 PM

The bolts are tight and I see no signs of anything moving. With the weighted tires on I can step off the tractor with it against a stump and it'll still slip. The BGB pulley is spinning, the belt is smoking when it slips. The second belt is tight. The second belt often sticks for a bit but it lets go after a few seconds, the result is a momentary creep forward.


In reverse, the second belt lets go, the band tightens up and it goes, the BGB pulley don't slip at all. Nothing else appears to change.

The part that gets me is that the outer belt is so loose, even with a shorter belt, there's almost no tension on it. I can lift it off the pulleys in forward with one finger, there's less than 5 pounds of tension on that belt. When the inner belt is tight, its tight and you can't pull it up off the pulleys. The tensioner simply don't seem to apply any tension, regardless of how much spring pressure on the other end of that linkage. If I remove the inner belt, the outer belt gets tight. If I switch to a shorter belt it still don't feel tight. The only way to get it 'tight' is to rim on a belt so short it fits like a tire on a rim. Even then the BGB pulley will slip. The belt is bottoming in the groove, but only after its slipped a few times. It don't ride that low normally, but its pretty low in the groove.


The inner belt is an original AC part number, what I noticed is that the 1/2" wide AC belt is wider than the 1/2" new belts, all of them. The shape of the belt is different as well. The angle of the sides is steeper and the bottom of the belt is narrower since the belt is thicker. If the belt wasn't so deep or thick, it wouldn't bottom in the pulley. Of course a proper belt will only make the belt ride better, it won't help the lack of tension.

I keep going back to the last parts tractor which has good tension on its belt, but I can't see why or what is different. That tractor is complete in the rear end. It takes a lot of force to retract the tensioner, which I figured was spring pressure but I've swapped over the springs and nothing changed.

I can't imagine that the belt should be this loose, if it were a fan belt on a car it would no doubt be slipping.
Once the weather clears a bit I'll be swapping over the whole linkage set from the other machine, if that don't work, in goes the three speed, but even then I have my doubts as to whether or not it'll slip the same way.



#35 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 15, 2013 - 10:39 PM

I'm stumped! Should be something obvious but I can't imagine what. Sorry!

#36 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 16, 2013 - 05:16 AM

How hard is it to swap in the whole rear end from the parts machine?

I'm thinking just unbolt the rear frame from the BGB, disconnect the rear of the seat pan, remove the shift rods, and roll one out, and the other in?

I'd just hate to do all that and find out the other trans isn't healthy. At least I know all the gears work in this one.

At this point if I knew that a straight three speed would bolt in and not slip the same way, I'd make that swap. But now having BGB slippage problems I somehow think that too will slip.

At this point I'm not sure if its a shuttle trans issue or just a belt/pulley issue.



#37 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 16, 2013 - 02:21 PM

Jack the new rear end up and see if it turns smoothly in each gear. Also make sure the differential works by lifting both wheels up and turn one of the wheels. The other should turn in the opposite direction when the tractor is in gear. The transmissions themselves are pretty bullet proof if they will shift smoothly into each gear. It is easiest to change everything from the BGB back if the both are in good shape from tractors of the same series or general type.

#38 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 05:03 AM

This may be a dumb question but did they change how they make belts these days? The original belts are 1/2 wide, yet every replacment belt I get is either just barely 1/2" wide or under. The original belts are wider than they are deep, the newer belts look like fabric covered automotive belts. The belt isn't contacting the pulley well at any point. On the original belt, its maybe 3/8" deep, the new belts are 1/2" deep.

I've tried belts from NAPA, TSC, two bearing supply houses, and a local JD dealer. All are different than the original belts. There is no local Simplicity or AC dealer around here anymore, even those listed on their website are gone, they didn't survive the economy the past few years, the one that did now sells only MTD.

 

Is there any differences in the back end of a 410s vs a 416s?

It looks pretty straight forward, but my concern again is the BGB pulley slipping.
The more I think about it, the one thing that's giving me problems isn't going to be changed by swapping out the rear end.



#39 KennyP ONLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 06:52 AM

Look this over. I still think either a wider belt or a narrower pulley on the BGB will fix this. The belt should not be down to the bottom of the pulley. They work best using the sides to grab the pulley.



#40 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 11:17 AM

All of the belts I've had on it were marked 4L530, yet they differ from the original belts. The only numbers on the original belts are OEM part numbers. The original OEM numbered belts don't look like they've got fabric on the sides where they contact the pulley, yet the part number crosses over to a FHP belt. All of the replacement belts look like the 'Narrow wedge' V belts in that chart.

 

With all this said, there's still no tension on the belt, I can apply more tension with my hand then is applied by the spring through all the linkage. I think its a matter of all the linkage being worn just enough to eat up travel. The arm where the spring is is bottomed out, yet the tensioner pulley arm has barely moved before the spring arm is out of travel. Yet the travel appears correct for the foward belt. It takes almost no pressure on the clutch pedal to stop all forward movement, the belt is never that tight. I thought about putting a spring on the pulley arm but in doing that it would also affect the forward drive belt.

 

On the untouched parts tractor, its real hard to pull the clutch pulley off the belt, yet on the 416s I can do it with two fingers. The belt barely has enough tension on it to straighten itself out and not droop.

 

As you can see in the earlier pic of the BGB pulley, the new kevlar belt I bought has wear on the bottom edge and inner corners, the belt is a fairly deep V shape.



#41 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 01:24 PM

I got a chance to mess with it a bit at lunch time, when the clutch is depressed, there's a lot of movement front and back in the cross shaft between the spring arm and the right side linkage, the holes in the frame are worn oblong by about 1/8", plus both the idler pulley arm, and the linkage rod have about 3/8" of play in them total. The idler pulley pivot allows the arm to rock almost 3/4" at its longest point. There is no bushings, just steel on steel. The parts on the parts machines are better but not by much. I think what's happening is that the spring tension is being lost in the play, the spring is allowed to almost completely relax before the tensioner even begins to tension the belt. If I add another spring to the tensioner arm, the it won't declutch, the left hand arm moves but the spring keeps the tensioner pulley applied just enough to keep the tractor moving. With the spring on the right side, pulling the tensioner into the belt harder, the clutch pedal runs out of travel before the belt is released. If I work the arm at the original spring on the left side, it moves almost an inch before the tensioner is moved at all. Without the added spring the tensioner just falls away but is never applied hard against the belt. With the spring in place on the tensioner arm, the belt tension is better but not what I'd say is enough, but the belt is still bottomed in the pulley. I'll have to do the rear end swap to tighten up the rear end linkage, I'll take the whole rear end, BGB and all I guess and see what happens. It'll have to wait till after this weekend, I don't forsee much free time until sometime next week. Just as well since the weather isn't cooperating anyhow.



#42 coldone OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 06:45 PM

I cant add much to the discussion but I can tell you  that sometimes the oem belts are the only ones that work. On The Massey/snapper 1855/1655 series there are two belts from the pulley on the engine to the drive shaft. I tried using the standard 4L belts from the supply house, they didnt last long and I couldnt get them tight enough. I broke down and spent the money for OEM belts and I have had no problems since. The 4L belts were narrower and deeper, they did bottom out on the pullies and I could always make them slip no matter how tight they were.



#43 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 10:10 PM

OEm parts are tough for this, the local dealers are long gone and I'm not sure if Agco still produces parts for these, even their replacement parts may be outsourced at this point.

Even the local green dealer and CC dealer sells belts that are the same as TSC.

Regardless of what brand belt it has, if the tensioner don't have any tension on it, the belt won't ever be tight enough.



#44 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 10:23 PM

It looks pretty straight forward, but my concern again is the BGB pulley slipping.
The more I think about it, the one thing that's giving me problems isn't going to be changed by swapping out the rear end.


BINGO!

#45 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 17, 2013 - 10:38 PM

Could you take some 1/4 plate and fabricate a patch plate with a semi circle that fits the shaft and can be bolted to the side plates to take up the slack as a repair for the oblong holes? One of he holes could be slotted so that you could pivot the plate back and forth to get just the right fit you need to make the shaft rotate rather than jump back and forth.




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