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Trans Conversion In 416s?


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#16 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 01:41 AM

Yes the inner belt ie supposed to be taut in forward. The photo of the selector in neutral looks ok from the still photo. All that inner belt does is tighten up and lock the inner half of the sheave to the outer half that is being driven by the traction belt. Both belts always travel in the same direction ( the top if the belt always travels from the rear to the front regardless which direction the tractor is moving.). When you move the lever from forward to neutral the inner belt is supposed to go slack and remain that way as you shift to reverse at which point the brake band tightens around the outer drum of the planet gears stopping the drum from turning and making the inner hub on shaft along with inner half of the pulley turn in reverse. It is really a cool mechanism. If you now have that many shuttles it would really be good for you to truly understand how that work. It would be cool to get one of them working nice and go by and thumb your nose by showing him how they are supposed to work.

Makeitfit, if you will send me a PM with your email address I would be glad to sent you diagrams and detailed explanations on how the shuttle mechanism.

PM Sent.

 

If the two sheeves are supposed to move together at the same speed, that's what I was trying to say about when it slips, the two pulleys are jumping separately. The right side moves slowly, and the rear is jumping or even rolling backwards a bit.

How does having the two belts tight lock the pulleys?

 

I have a factory shop manual here, it came with the one 410 I bought for parts. It covers 300 and 400 series models. Is this a single or double planetary set up? How does speed vary without belt slippage?


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#17 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 12, 2013 - 02:41 PM

The speed is not supposed to vary as such without changing gears. You can operate without the clutch and feather the hand controls slipping the belts momentariarly to slow down around obstacles and to smooth transition from forward to reverse and back again but once underway forward or reverse should be fully engaged. The split sheave is locked together by the forward clutch belt by tightening and drawing the belt into the two halves. Power from the outside is transmitted across the belt to the inside half of the sheave rather than the power being transmitted along its length as is typical.

Edited by skunkhome, January 12, 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#18 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2013 - 02:58 AM

I got the manual, it looks a lot easier to follow than the OEM manual it came with.

How often do these have to be adjusted?

I went through the adjustments real quick but ended up with a lot of creeping in forward, and near total slippage.
For what ever reason I can't get the inner belt to lock up the double pulley. I swapped in a known working belt from the 410S, both belts are OEM now and look good.
The linkage on this is pretty loose overall, there's 1/16th of play in most all the connections.

I'm trying to figure out why the inner belt tightens in reverse not forward. I also have to keep readjusting the clutch rod clearance.
I finally see how the inner pulley locks up, its only half a pulley, the belt just forces the two to turn together. The belt IS the forward clutch when using the lever.

The part I don't get is why it matters which gear I'm in whether or not it slips or how much it slips. I have near total slippage in 3 & 4, it'll drive and pull some weight in 2, but will plow the field and only slip against an immovable obstacle. It takes a catching the plow on a buried stump or large root to stop it in 1st, but when it does slip, it doesn't spin a wheel, it slips mechanically. In 4th, it won't drive up my driveway incline which is nearly unnoticeable when walking. Yet in reverse, it'll pull a house down.

After reading your manual pages, I have a better understanding of how it supposed to work but why the belt situation is so different in different gears.

 

If there's no real variable speed with a shuttle, then its really just a 4 speed manual with a funky clutch for and instant reverse? 

 

On another note, the guy that gave me all the parts machines called me today, he wanted to know why I didn't take all the tractors out back, apparently he's not liking the space I cleared out and wants me to come back and take all the 'antique junk' away. I'm not sure whether he meant just the rest of the Simplicity/AC stuff or everything he's got outback in that area. There were several old Bolens, Ariens, Sears, Wheel Horse, and Deere tractors in that area.

 

I tossed a used 16hp in the most complete tractor I got the other day, a later model 7119, the motor came from the mostly stripped out 7016 in the same lot. It runs, drives, and seems to work fine, it just don't have a lift cable to lift the rear hitch and unless I run the engine at fairly high speed, the trans shutters and makes a lot of noise. Its fine at 3/4 throttle. I've still got to rig up the ignition switch to run with a magneto motor, but for now I just added a kill switch. When I get more time to mess with it I'll start a separate post here I guess. (Debating on whether to just convert to a car ignition and coil and leave the ignition switch alone, The way I looks I need to find a bulk deal on size 51 battteries. This makes four running, and I'm sure there's enough parts here to have two more up and going soon if I get the time.



#19 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2013 - 11:17 PM

As for slippage in higher gears, it is because it takes more power to turn the input shaft on the transmission in higher gears. I wish I were there to look at the system. It may very well be that all the linkages are just worn out but with all those parts tractors you should be able to cannibalize enough parts to correct. I too am puzzled about the forward belt tightening when shifted to reverse. I will have to look at my tractor and figure out how that is possible. It is a possibility that the linkage is so worn that the lever for forward is somehow going over center allowing the belt to tighten regardless of which way the controls move.

#20 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 13, 2013 - 11:19 PM

Sounds like you could find yourself in the used parts business. Do you have enough room to storeThem?

#21 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 07:38 AM

I went through the adjustment procedure again, it worked for a while but I didn't really get to put it under full load before it went back to slipping. Two adjustments refuse to stay aligned, both the neutral position detent and the 1/8-3/16" clearance adjustment on the forward belt rod keep moving. The collars don't move, but the adjustment changes.

Also, the belts are never tight, I can always pass my fingers around the pulley even with the belts fully tightened.
The spring on the left side, which applies tension to the main drive belt is new, its strong enough that you need a tool to install it, yet with the spring installed, it doesn't relay that tension to the belt tensioner. I can put a pry bar on the arm that the spring attaches to and apply more tension to the belt, but the spring don't do the job. Its as if the spring doesn't have enough mechanical advantage over the tension pulley. The same with the forward drive belt, it only seems to get tension from the spring which is captive on the rod, that belt never had more than a few pounds of pressure on it.

I also tried two new belts, both kevlar green belts from a local dealer, it wouldn't move at all with those belts, it was as if neither belt could get traction on the pulleys. The original belts have more rubber exposed, the new belts looked like they were cloth covered, with no rubber showing.

I'm starting to think that its a matter of all the linkage points just being worn out, there's play in at all points, I've swapped out a few pieces from the two parts tractors but all of the linkage isn't the same on those other two. The two parts machines don't have the spring on the rod like this 416 does.

 

I'm not sure if I'll get to fool with it today, its supposed to rain all day, its been pouring all night. I gave up last night after going through the adjustment procedure three times and having it change just as many.

I never get the same measurement twice at the forward drive belt adjustment, the collar and spring are not moving that I can see.

That rod and associated parts differ on all other shuttle drives I have here.



#22 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 08:24 AM

Sounds like you could find yourself in the used parts business. Do you have enough room to storeThem?

I've got room for a few, but I took a good number of them over to a buddies place, its one of the lots I plant each year. There's a couple of old barns there that don't get used. Right now I've got one barn nearly full of old tractors after the last lot of tractors I picked up.
The bad part is that a few of the freebie tractors look better than the one's I'm running.

 

The one 410s looks great but the shaft that runs through the frame from the lift handle is missing, the other two parts machines all have that same rod cut in half. There's also a pair of 7117H's that look decent, just no motors. There is a few good running 12 and 16hp Briggs single cylinder motors though, and there's on Wheel Horse with a minty looking Kohler Magnum 18. (The WH has its rear half cut off with a torch). There's one Ariens with an old 8hp that started right up on the first try, other than a few noisey idler or spindle bearings it runs and cuts grass just fine. There's 4 Ford LGTs, one older model, the rest are in the early 80's, one Jacobsen version, with a 16hp Kohler, two WH B series, Four Bolens 1250s and one 1455 and one 1476, all of the Bolens are complete but none appear to have run in years. Each Bolens has an attachment on it, one with a deck, one with a snow blower, one with a plow, and another with a loader. Two have decks. There's were also a pair of Snapper tractors, one an LT12, the other a YT18H, both are missing their engines but other wise complete. I sold the LT12 on the way home, the guy at the gas station wanted it for parts, so I traded it for a fill up in the truck, about $80. It had four good tires, a good seat, and maybe a good transaxle. It was no use to me so I was glad to not have to store it. I tried to move the other Snapper to but its a lot bigger model. It would probably make someone a good mower if they wanted to put a motor in it. 

 

Along with those there's also a half dozen MTD/AYP models that need to hit the scrap pile minus their 11hp Briggs motors, wheels, and transaxles. I have another load to go get today if the weather holds out, but that don't look too promisiing right now.

If it rains, I'll spend some time in the barn tearing apart the sheetmetal junk just to make some room.

 

The total list of Simplicity/AC machines now is as follows: (not counting the four machines I owned in the first place).

 

3012 3 spd missing trans parts

3212 3 spd missing various parts, trans leaked oil all over on the ride home.

3410S x 2 one missing its starter/gen.

3410H  runs, but steering seized.

3410 3 spd x2 runs but has carb issues, very rusty below battery.

3415H missing rear axle and diff.

3416H engine not mounted, missing driveshaft couplers.

7013H Missing engine and misc parts off trans.

7016 6spd bent front axle.

7117H x 4 three missing motor, one has 16hp Briggs engine installed but missing driveshaft parts.

7119H x 2 one with single cylinder Briggs, other with single cylinder Kohler Magnum 16, both are otherwise complete.

B1 complete, missing air cleaner assembly and has bad coil.

416S missing nearly all of the external trans parts

416H minus transaxle and engine

410S x 2 both missing engines, both missing lift mechanisms and shafts.

410 3 spd gutted, mostly a hulk with several buckets of parts minus its engine.

 

Tires are suspect on most, only one 3410H has a deck. None have batteries, most have pretty rough seats if any at all.

Keep in mind that these were all sitting in fenced in area behind a repair shop for years, only a few were under any sort of cover. The Bolens machines and the 7100 Simplicity machines were under an overhang off the back of the building. The rest of these were sitting out in the weather only partially covered with old tarps and trash bags that had long since fallen apart.

At least most were on asphalt. about half of the tires had air, those that didn't wouldn't take air and are dry rotted beyond use.



#23 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 11:42 AM

Gee, that is all or part of some 2 dozen tractors. One thing you will find is that many of the components remained virtially un-changed over the 40 years those tractors were manufactured. You will find from model to model in most years changes in parts list usually involved a handfull of parts. There were certainly no new tractors but just another step in the evolution from the Simplicity 700 until the last Sovereign rolled out of the plant in 1999. Certainly sounds like you could piece together a few tractors and part out what's left .

Edited by skunkhome, January 14, 2013 - 11:58 AM.


#24 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 12:23 PM

I figure that there's at least three to be had from the lot of parts, maybe a few more but it depends on how complete they need to be. For whatever reason all the 400 series models are missing the shaft that the lift lever mounted too and any related parts. The one that still has the shaft has its end cut off.

 

The rest are a matter of just mixing and matching parts, assuming that all the transaxles are good. So far all of the bevel gear boxes look OK wear wise. Only the 7100 models have headlights, the 7000 models are all missing theirs, and only two 3400 models have side mounted headlight boxes but none have bulbs.

Other than that, the number of complete tractors I can build depends on how many tires and batteries I care to buy.



#25 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 03:43 PM

Well, It stopped raining long enough for me to mess with this thing some more, at this point I've swapped in the belt tensioner, springs, and BGB pulley from a 410S. I've gone through the adjustment procedure 7 times.
I think the changes in the settings are due to belt stretch or wear. I finally had to change out the last original belt I had for a new kevlar belt from TSC, but still it slips, although I think I've narrowed it down to it only slipping at the BGB pulley.

I swapped over to my plowing tires, a set of loaded ags, plus hung my snow plowing weight box and pulled it up to a tree stump to see what slips first. First off, it will not spin a tire in any gear, except reverse. It will pull a house off its foundation in reverse.

I snapped a few pics of it in Fwd and Neutral, maybe someone else can spot something amiss?

I think what it simply boils down to is there's not enough tension on the main drive belt, I can lift if off the pully in any gear with a finger, even though the spring on the arm on the left side has good tension. I can't remove that spring at any point by hand yet I can lift the tensioner up and remove the belt with on hand. With a 1/2" x 53" belt, (what the OEM number crossed over too), the tensioner and linkage is nearly bottomed out. I thought about trying a shorter belt but figured that would only give me less belt wrap on the BGB pulley. The 1/2" belt looks lost in those pulleys, yet that is what it calls for.

I feel if I could get the belt to grab better on the BGB pulley this thing would be fine.

 

15co8eo.jpg

Shuttle lever in Forward

 

5wz1qp.jpg

Shuttle in Neutral

 

2weggfn.jpg

BGB pulley and belt

 

(The pulley isn't oily, its wet from rain water running off the seat pan when opened).

I swapped this pulley from the 410S. Note how much fabric is on the surface of the new belt, this pic was taken after only one test ride.


Edited by makeitfit, January 14, 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#26 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 04:25 PM

Is it my imagination or is the belt polishing the bottom of the v in the BGB pulley?

#27 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 07:11 PM

Is it my imagination or is the belt polishing the bottom of the v in the BGB pulley?

Looks like it to me as well! Maybe you need a wider belt!



#28 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 07:33 PM

Its got the size belt they call for, the original part number belt is a 1/2" x 53" belt, but it burned three of them up.

Looking at the pulleys it sure does look like it should have a wider belt but not according to the parts list.

The original belt number is 2029350, which translates to a 1/2" x 53" belt. Also, I've used up every used belt I had here, they all had this same size belt, the pulley on it came from a 410S with a blown motor, (motor was knocking but the trans was not slipping).

 

A new belt rides super close to the bottom of both pulleys, I'm not sure if the new belt hits bottom or not, but the last two did after it slipped and burnt them right up. Once it starts to slip, its over, the belt has to go. Sometimes it'll start out with traction, then cut loose all at once, you smell the belt burning pretty fast, at that point it won't move forward at all, only backward. Even then it'll pull just fine in reverse. For what ever reason, even in high gear, it never slips in reverse, even when backed up to a stump. The wheels will sit there and grind in reverse, yet in forward the BGB pulley slips inside the belt. The part I really don't get is why it don't slip in reverse?

Even if I apply maximum pressure against the belt tensioner with a ratchet strap, I can still turn the BGB pulley with the belt on by hand. If I put the tractor in gear, in forward, and push, the belt free slips around the BGB, it pushes as if in neutral.

I have a 5/8" belt here, but a 5/8" sits super high on the pulleys, so it can't be the intended belt width. Besides, its already burned up a few good used OEM belts. The pulley on it now came from the 410, as did the last belt, the tensioner , and the spring.

The original pulley didn't look as bad as this one but both measure the same. I swapped the pulley out thinking that maybe the original was worn in some way I couldn't see but the new pulley made no difference.

Is there a width fractional HP belt between 1/2" and 5/8" that may work?



#29 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 10:01 PM

I think I would get a 4L 520 and see if you get any better traction. Don't get an expensive belt just go to auto zone, if it doesnt fit you can return. I am running a 4L 550 on mine because I installed a 6 " pulley on the BGB to increase my ground speeds about 20%. I can change it back to the original 5" pulley at any time if I decide I need the lower ground speed for the tiller. There could be that there has been some change over the years that changed the distance from the BGB to the transmission input shaft.

I also notice that there is no slack showing on the clutch rod. Is that just because the clutch rod is not pulled out all the way? I am thinking there should be about 1/4" between the thimble and the set nuts.

I wonder if the clutch idler pulley is the correct diameter.

Edited by skunkhome, January 14, 2013 - 10:26 PM.


#30 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 14, 2013 - 11:20 PM

All of the shuttle transmissions I have use the same pulleys and tensioner, the only difference is the shuttle actuator rod, my 416 has the spring, the others are solid collars.
The clutch rod has about 5/16" or so of play, but I have to keep backing off the nuts everytime it slips.
I took a good look at the only shuttle set up I haven't stripped parts from, that belt rides the same way, but that belt isn't as deep.Its wider than it is deep. For some reason that one's clutch idler sits in much higher up, its giving much more wrap on the belt around the BGB pulley, on the other three, the clutch idler barely changes the shape of the belt.

It also uses a different bushing where it pivots. On my 416S, with the belt off, the idler moves freely and will flop all the way down with both rods off, on the other one the idler remains in a fixed travel range. It can't drop completely down.

The BGB pulleys are identical on all of these, as is the distance between the center of all shafts.

I didn't have a 4L520 belt handy but I did try rimming on a belt that goes direct between the two pulleys but it still slips at the BGB under even a light load or higher gears. I tied the upper linkage arm in place so the inner belt locked up the pulleys as well.

Even with a belt that's so tight I can't twist it along its longest run I can still reach down and spin the BGB pulley by hand without moving the belt. As a last ditch attempt tonight I took another BGB pulley and glass beaded it to roughen up the surface and tried that but no change. It helped for a bit but glazed right up. The belts are riding only a fraction of an inch from the bottom of the pulleys, under load you can see their polishing the bottom as well. When its slipping the belt is sunken even farther down in the pulley.

 

With the last OEM belt I had, I adjusted everthing step by step, then took it outback and up against an old stump, the belts slipped, it never even attempted to spin a tire, and after the belt slips, it would barely make it back to the front of the garage. Once it slips, that belt is done. The pulleys are smooth, there's no wear grooves. If it were strictly a tension issue I would think that the direct run, short belt would have fixed the slipping. Also, why will it back up just fine in 4th, up hill, even up the trailer ramps, yet it will bearly move in forward. With the engine off, with the tractor against a stump, I can hand turn the rear pulley and make the wheels spin, so nothing is seized. It takes so little force to make it slip once it starts slipping I can't understand why it won't move the tractor.

I even gave the frame a good once over to make sure nothing was cracked or moving, but it all looks fine.






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