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Trans Conversion In 416s?


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#1 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 06, 2013 - 03:25 AM

For several years now I've owned an AC 416S, and for years the shuttle has been a headache.

99% of the time its fine, but it needs constant adjustment to be right and it'll slip under big loads.

I use this thing for plowing a garden, it'll only pull the plow in low range, if I shift to high it slips. The final drive belt sometime slips on the front pulley and sometimes the slippage comes from within the shuttle pulley set up, Holding brakes will slip allowing the power to counter rotate the reverse side of the drive a bit. I also have two motorless 410S parts machines, one of which I've robbed of its manual lift lever and shaft for the 416S which came to me sans any lift mechanism.
 

As a tractor, its a beast, I just need to be able to get all of its power to the ground.

There's no reason why this shouldn't be able to pull a plow in a higher gear, fast enough to roll the soil over into the last furrow. In low this thing bearly crawls.

Third and fourth gear are about useless for all but covering ground fast, it won't even go up a minor grade in fourth without slipping the belt or shuttle.

 

Now, I do have a straight three speed from a Simplicity 3210, it looks to me like that trans will bolt right in? Even the clutch set up is similar. I can use the shifter from the 3210 or modify the one from the 416S.

Does this sound like a viable swap? I see they did make a 410 with a manual 3 speed, so I'm guessing that its the same trans they used in that model. (All of my parts tractors are also shuttle shift models).

I'm thinking that I'd like the shear simplicity of a straight three speed gear box without all the fiddling around with this shuttle shift mess. If it'll fit, the end result should be a very basic, strong machine.



#2 mjodrey OFFLINE  

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Posted January 06, 2013 - 05:32 AM

makeitfit,welcome to the forum.Glad to have you with us.

 

I can't help you,but hopefully someone will be along shortly.



#3 KennyP OFFLINE  

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Posted January 06, 2013 - 05:59 AM

Welcome to the forum! Sorry you had to wait for me to approve your first post, but you're good to go now!



#4 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 06, 2013 - 09:44 PM

In forward the shuttle planetary gears don't come into play and should not cause any slippage. In forward the main traction belt drives the outside half of the pulley and the forward belt (short belt) simply transfers the power from the outer half to the inside by being tightened by the idler. Sounds like you may have a clutch idler that is not engaging the belt fully. Shuttles will never perform up to their potential if not adjusted verbatim according to the manual. Additionally they will not function well if the reversing brake band and the brake pad on the inner half of the drive pulley are worn out. Of course adjusting the shuttle drive with that immovable seat pan has to be a challenge to say the least.

As for changing the transmission you may want to Change out all the clutch mechanism as well.

Edited by skunkhome, January 06, 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#5 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 07, 2013 - 10:44 PM

The seat pan isn't a big deal, the seat flips up and the tool tray lifts right out.

I went by the service manual to adjust the shuttle drive, when I bought it this thing wouldn't even drive on the trailer.

Now it'll at least push snow and move my trailer around. It came with a snow plow, dirt plow, and double row Brinly disc.

It actually slips worse pulling the disc for some reason. The drive belt clutch arm and pulley look good, the bushing has some wobble in it but the belt is new and appears to tighted up just fine. The belt is a 1/2" x 53" power drive belt from NAPA.

I even tried temporarily putting more tension on the belt with a ratchet strap to see if it still slips and I get the same thing.

In 2nd gear or higher the shuttle slips, in first, the front gear box pulley slips in the belt. The wheels will never spin.
This thing has about 50 lbs of ballast in each tire, tire chains, and an extra weight on the left side for plowing dirt.

Traction is never an issue.


I've sat and watched it when it gets 'stuck', the outer pulley on the rear slows down to barely a crawl and the inner part starts to chatter backwards. Those little brake pads or shoes that grab the pulley there are worn pretty far down, their maybe 1/8" thick at best. My guess is that their not holding the pulley and the planetary gears are transferring the power to the reverse pulley?

By looking at this set up my impression was that when in reverse, it holds the brake, and in forward it holds the opposite pulley to allow forward movement?

 

Either way, if its a matter of this thing needing constant adjustment I'd rather just swap in a 3 speed manual, a slightly higher first gear ratio may be better anyhow.

Has anyone ever made the swap? Was the three speed gear box/transaxle from an earlier model Simplicity the same as the gear box that came in a 410? Just looking at the two and how they bolt in place they sure do look like a near direct swap. The only issue may be shift linkage but even the shifter rods look to be in the same place. I'm betting that it'll be a dead bolt in with the same shifter and linkage.



#6 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2013 - 12:57 AM

Yours is the first I have heard of, that will not pull in forward. Usually the issues involve operating the tractor in reverse.
If the outside pulley is not maintaining speed than there must not be enough tension on the the main traction belt. The little brake pad on the inside of the split pulley is only to keep the inner half from turning when the shuttle selector is in the neutral position. Keeps the gears from grinding if you try putting the tractor in gear when the clutch is engaged. Power is directed through the planetary gears only when the shuttle is shifted into reverse and the brake band is compressed or tightened around the planetary gear drum. Slipping at the BGB pulley is not effected by adjustments of the shuttle. Usually a chatter in the planetary gears means that the forward belt is trying to drive the tractor forward at the same time that the brake band is tightening around the planetary assembly and the tractor is struggling to drive forward and reverse at the same time. That indicates misadjustment or control linkages that are so worn out that they are allowing the reverse and forward cycles to overlap. That said, most people either love the shuttle or hate it. There are not many that are neutral on the subject. I am personally fascinated by the mechanical reversing mechanism and could probably sit there for an hour watching it from go forward to neutral to reverse and back again with absolute smoothness. I find it much smoother in operation than my hydrostatic which tends to be jerky going from forward to reverse because the sunstrand transmission absolutely will not roll in the neutral where the shuttle will coast to a lightly braked stop.

Edited by skunkhome, January 09, 2013 - 01:00 AM.


#7 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2013 - 03:43 AM

Skunkhome: After reading your post I decided to try something, I backed off the brake band to see if it made a difference and it don't slip as bad but still won't go up any sort of grade in 3rd or 4th. Even the few degrees of incline up my driveway makes it lose speed and smell like brake shoes burning. I never smell rubber burning and the belt shows no signs of burning or slipping.

It back up fine, (with the brake band connected and adjusted). The brakes on this thing are super touchy too, it takes very little to jam this thing to a stop if your not careful. The guy that had it before me had it to a dealer for a lot of work.

The brake band and planetary is all new, but those little pads look well worn. It does grind a bit when shifting gears if you don't give it a second with the clutch pedal down.

 

I even went so far on this to remove the BGB pulley and check the keyway. The pulley looks new too. There is some slop in the clutch pulley pivot, but it moves all the way and the spring in new.

I like how it works but it won't pull a plow without slipping. I wouldn't care if reverse didn't work, I'm plowing an open field.
I also tried backing up the same hills it won't go up in forward and it back up just fine, no slipping at all. It'll go way faster in reverse than in forward. I've got a 410S parts machine here, it came to me with a badly knocking motor but it still ran. The one thing I noticed between the two is that on the 410S, if I shifted from reverse to forward it would hit hard and almost rear up, on the 416S it just slides into forward, often continuing to coast rearward a bit after the leaver is pushed 'forward'. I don't do that regularly but I found it out backing the 410 off the trailer when I brought it home. If the 410 was tied to a tree, the wheels would spin, on the 416, it just sits there. On flat ground though the 416 will gain speed but slows the instant there's any sort of grade.

I even tried putting a ratchet strap on the clutch pulley arm to pull up on the belt but it don't help. That made me think I had slippage elsewhere but I can't see it.

I do notice that there's a slight oil leak on the left side axle, it gets wet where the axle shaft goes into the outer tube. It will create a drip only if left sit for a long time. Never enough to really see.


I'm all for not having to swap out the trans but the 3 speed is free, I already have it and I figure that the slightly higher gear ratio in first may be just about right for this. First in the shuttle trans is too slow, it barely crawls even at wide open throttle. Second feels like a big jump though.


Something interesting I've noticed is that if I'm fast off the clutch or hit first of second hard it jumps forward hard, in 3rd and 4th it sort of just slides into gear and will only move when the lever is fully pushed forward. In first and second the shuttle gives a variable effect.

I also have to keep adjusting the brake rod, it'll slowly loose the freeplay after a day of plowing.

I've also got an older B1 with a 7.25hp Briggs motor that I've used, that has a three speed trans and does just fine plowing, if this thing could do what that does I'd be a happy camper.

The 416 isn't pretty, but if I got the trans finally sorted out it would become my full time garden tractor. Its far more comfortable to drive than the old B1.

The B1 never slips, it'll on occasion spin a tire if the plow digs in or gets hung up but it never slips, even with its skinny 6-12 tires.



#8 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 09, 2013 - 09:43 PM

" the brakes on this thing are super touchy too"
"Ding", there is the answer! The adjustment sequence starts with the main brake. If it is too tight then you will never get the shuttle to work right because you will also have to shorten the clutch throw so that the clutch will disengage before the brake engages. When you shorten the clutch it can't travel enough to allow the traction belt to get enough grip on the front pulley to pull the tractor. You can of course swap out the transmission but I think all your symptoms sound like maladjustments. You would do yourself and the tractor justice by backing off all the adjustments that the dealer screwed up and start at the brakes on the left side of the transmission. Get them set right according to the manual then proceed to the clutch and then shuttle mechanism. I only check my shuttle adjustments when I do my periodic maintenance. Seldom does it need adjustments any other time but each time. I do it, I start at the brake and adjust the 6 -7 steps to the end of the sequence at the shuttle brake band. I use an 1/8 drill bit as a feeler guage for the inner sheave brake pad.

Edited by skunkhome, January 09, 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#9 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2013 - 01:14 AM

I went over the adjustment myself tonight, nothing seemed to be very far out of adjustment. The brakes still grab super hard.
The pedal travel feels good, the brakes don't engage till the pedal is a good ways down, but when you reach the point where the brakes engage, it all but throws you into the steering wheel if your moving at any speed. It will slide the back wheels if your moving along in high gear on the road. There's no way to ease into the brakes, its all or nothing.

I've got a 3410S that I mow with and that one is touchy too but not as bad as the 416s.

 

I backed off the brake a bit, but when I did the tractor would creep forward.

With all adjustments made as in the manual, when I grab the belt clutch arm and pulley its free to extend as far as it needs to, with the belt off, the clutch pulley can extend well past where the belt would ever ride. There's nothing restricting its movement.

The belt however doesn't feel like its under much tension with the arm and pulley in place, I can lift the belt off the pulley by hand. There's just not a lot of spring tension there, and the spring is new, several of them came with the tractor when I bought it. I've even tried putting a heavier spring on  there but it don't have much effect. I thought at first the looseness in the pivot point for the clutch pulley arm was a factor but it don't restrict the travel any.
Plus, by me putting  a ratchet strap on the clutch arm to temporarily tighten the belt it should have eliminated any slippage.

I can manually pull the clutch pulley a lot tighter, right now the belt is loose enough that I can slide my hand around and lift it off any pulley. It looks to me like there's an issue with the spring not having enough mechanical advantage over the arm and linkage. I can pry till I'm blue in the face against the top linkage but barely affect the belt tension. It seems like there should be a spring that more directly applies pressure?

All the pivot points look good, there's no worn or binding linkage that I can see but I can move the clutch pivot arm away from the belt easier than I can apply pressure to the linkage up top. I'm about ready to dig up a super strong spring and give that a try in the field to see if it slips then. If the planetary gears don't affect forward, then its got to be belt slippage, so somehow I need to get the belt tighter on the pulleys.



#10 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2013 - 01:14 PM

Would it be at all possible to posit a few pictures? Something is amiss and I don't think it is necessarily any thing to do with he transmission itself. The traction belt should fit snug when the clutch is released.

#11 Goatboy OFFLINE  

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Posted January 10, 2013 - 08:49 PM

Are you sure you have the correct belt? I dont know the shuttle trans, but maybe you can try one size smaller belt. Or some belt dressing to help it grip.



#12 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 02:07 AM

Would it be at all possible to posit a few pictures? Something is amiss and I don't think it is necessarily any thing to do with he transmission itself. The traction belt should fit snug when the clutch is released.

I'll see if I can get a few pics, I got home too late today, after dark.

I did try one more thing, I took a shorter belt, one that I could rim on without the tensioner in play. It fit supe tight.
With that belt in place, it still slipped when up against an immovable obstacle. Its hard to see what is slipping because it won't do it unless my weight is on the tractor. With a smaller rider it just spins a tire. With my 350lbs on it, plus the loaded tires, I get the slipping effect. With the short belt in place, (no clutch at all), if I pulled it up to a fence post to push, it would grind a tire a bit then get traction and just sit there. I couldn't see what was slipping but I got a brake burning smell, not rubber, but like when a clutch slips or brakes get hot on a truck. The brake band in first gear is loose, so its not that, the only thing I can figure is its those little stop pads burning? I've gotten that smell when plowing too.

When its slipping and not moving, I can lean back and look at the planetary pulley and its turning super slow. No odd noises. If I put it in reverse, it backs right up, if I back it into a non movable object it will spin the tires, no matter what. Only forward will slip.

Never in reverse. To me this eliminates anything like a spun keyway, or with the shorter belt, any belt slippage.
What else besides the brake band or shuttle shoes or pads can make a brake type burning smell?

I've also marked the input and output shafts on the BGB and nothing moves there.

I put the corrrect 1/2x53" belt back on when I was done messing with it.

 

Am I right that if it'll back up and not slip, the belts are OK? The way I see it the BGB to trans belt is always loaded and spinning the same direction, if it were going to slip, it would slip in either direction?
 

I stopped today at a local small engine shop, I saw a few machines sitting behind the fence so I stopped to pick their brain a bit, when I mentioned AC Shuttle drive he just said I should cut my losses and junk it, I asked about the machines outback in the fence and he said that I could have all of them with the shuttle set up if I cared to drag them out of there.

I left with 5 machines, all in various states of disrepair for free. I got another 410s, two 3410s Simplicity tractors, both fairly complete, one nearly completely stripped 416s with basically nothing but the shuttle drive, and one 3415s missing everything in front of the dash. He also gave me a 6 speed 7016, and a motorless 7117H which looks pretty clean minus a motor, hydro lift, and seat. There are three motors in all, and two complete sets of wheels. The 6 speed 7016 appears to be just a three speed trans with a second set of pulleys. That whole mechanism is stuck, and its got one badly bent spindle.

(My neighbors are going to love me after they see the pile of tractors behind the garage now).

I figured for free, I couldn't not take them. Even for other various spare parts.

 

I'm still thinking that the easy fix will be a straight three speed, unless I can figure out for certain what slips on this 416s.

 

I'll get a few pics if I get home early enough tomorrow.



#13 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 09:58 AM

None of what you are saying makes any sense to me . If it backs up the shuttle works. In forward there are two places it could be slipping. The forward belt (small belt) could be worn or loose. Or the same should be true of the traction belt. Another thing could be that the traction belt is contaminated by oil from the BGB. None of the braking surfaces should be in effect with the shuttle lever in forward position.

Any mechanic that would tell you to junk the shuttle when you mention it, doesn't understand the mechanism and is unfairly condemning something because he would rather do so than take the time to learn about it. If the shuttle were a bad mechanism it would not have been offered as a power train option on Simplicity an AC for more than a decade. If the planetary mechanism were worn out, which it clearly isn't, then I might agree with his statement. If I were there I am sure I could sort out the issue in short order and you wouldn't dream of junking it. I have had a 300 series tractor and I can see how the lack of visibility/accessibility afforded by the seat pan can hinder seeing and adjusting anything like a variable or shuttle mechanism.

Btw have fun with all the tractors. Wow 5-7 tractors in one place? I'd bet there aren't more than 10 in the whole state of Louisiana and the only ones I know of are the ones owned by my brother and I. You can't beat free but it is an indicator to me that the mechanic places little value in the Simplicity design and anything he says about it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Edited by skunkhome, January 11, 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#14 makeitfit OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 10:35 PM

The guy that had all the Simplicity and AC tractors hated them, especially the shuttle models. He seems to deal more with Wheel Horse or Cub Cadet there, as do many local shops. Both of those brands are the norm around here along with older Ford and newer JD small tractors.

Simplicity was never common here and the AC versions were never sold near here. My 416s has a dealer sticker on it from somewhere in Philadelphia, about an hour away. The one parts tractor has a dealer decal from VA. One of my Simplicity tractors had a dealer sticker from Fremont, CA. I bought it from a family that moved here near a buddy of mine, I was over his place with my tractor dragging a lawn roller around and hauling logs up from his back lot on a trailer when they mentioned they had one they wanted to get rid of. I left that day with a free 7119H with a blown motor and 48" deck. I sold the deck the next day for $300.

 

I think you may have hit on something in your last post. The inner belt on this thing only gets tight in reverse, from what you stated that's backwards?

 

If the inner belt is the forward belt, then there's something more seriously amiss than just adjustments. When I put this in forward, the inner belt goes slack, its super tight in reverse. In reverse I can hear the plantary gears whirring. In reverse, I have rearward drive almost the minute I pull the lever back, and speed increases all the way to the most rearward point. In forward, it'll only really move if the lever is all the way forward.

I replaced the outer drive belt, the one from the BGB to the rear pulley but didn't mess with the inner belt since I was under the impression it was for reverse, and that belt looked fine, and reverse works perfect.

In reverse, both belts are tight, the inner belt is tighter, in forward, the inner belt and brake band is completely slack.

I snapped a few pics in the dark, this is with the original belt back in place.

j5v49h.jpg

Lever full forward

 

264ky7m.jpg

Lever in neutral detent



#15 skunkhome OFFLINE  

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Posted January 11, 2013 - 11:18 PM

Yes the inner belt is supposed to be taut in forward. The photo of the selector in neutral looks ok from the still photo. All that inner belt does is tighten up and lock the inner half of the sheave to the outer half that is being driven by the traction belt. Both belts always travel in the same direction ( the top if the belt always travels from the rear to the front regardless which direction the tractor is moving.). When you move the lever from forward to neutral the inner belt is supposed to go slack and remain that way as you shift to reverse at which point the brake band tightens around the outer drum of the planet gears stopping the drum from turning and making the inner hub on shaft along with inner half of the pulley turn in reverse. It is really a cool mechanism. If you now have that many shuttles it would really be good for you to truly understand how that work. It would be cool to get one of them working nice and go by and thumb your nose by showing him how they are supposed to work.

Makeitfit, if you will send me a PM with your email address I would be glad to sent you diagrams and detailed explanations on how the shuttle mechanism.

Edited by skunkhome, January 15, 2013 - 11:41 AM.





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